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Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:47 pm
by Harry Dalek
Today i cut open and tested another 4.33 crystal but the smaller type getting about the same results as the larger one .
But as with both i could not really get it to work with to much liquid ,i had the idea to fill just a small a glass fuse as the holder with one cap removed fill it up and try what i have been doing but sort of in reverse ,i couldn't really see an effect as on top of the crystal in the fuse really so been thinking about it .
I am going to pass on any light experiment as that is pointless until less i know there is waves happening in the liquid that is is the crystal oscillating or stops with to much liquid bit like my first tests .
Perhaps a way to test this is to use the transmitting crystal as is and use another as a receiver in a water bath ...crystals also work the other way where vibration cause electrical voltage out of it i would expect this to be tiny but might be able to pick it up might need a tuned coil and cap ...
Another problem which i was assuming was that crystals were all X cut for oscillating crystals X cut is the type used for a Jeffree cell .....
reading this i could be using something else AT cut ? :roll:
https://www.electronics-notes.com/artic ... -sc-ct.php

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:49 am
by Klaas Robers
Harry, realize yourself that the PAL delay-line is a glass delay line. The two quartz are an the edges, the large piece is glass. You might find the older glass delay lines, which have a large thick block of glass and two larger crystals. They are suitable (at 4,433619 MHz) to drive the glass block, so also an oil bath. the problem is then how to remove the crystals from the large block, but that might be doable. At least you have then a suitable crystal.

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:07 pm
by Harry Dalek
Klaas Robers wrote:Harry, realize yourself that the PAL delay-line is a glass delay line. The two quartz are an the edges, the large piece is glass. You might find the older glass delay lines, which have a large thick block of glass and two larger crystals. They are suitable (at 4,433619 MHz) to drive the glass block, so also an oil bath. the problem is then how to remove the crystals from the large block, but that might be doable. At least you have then a suitable crystal.


Ok Klaas if i ever come across a vintage 70s colour tv i know what to expect init ..
My large crystal with the gold connections i was using i accidentally dropped today and it broke ,tried a replacement same size crystal must be newer it seems as it was slightly smaller thinner and connections on the crystal are white does not work as well .
As it was it needs a awful lot of voltage just to vibrate a few drops of liquid enough to see any results ,and does heat up the crystal i can only think that any one that had a working Scophony television with a jeffree cell would of had to keep it topped up like a cars radiator...

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:11 pm
by Harry Dalek
I was wondering if there was any difference using a lower frequency crystal ,and not so much results but the crystal is bigger or thicker here.
IMG_0366.JPG

IMG_0375.JPG

In the video a 2mhz one used not to impressive but tried something that Chris long suggested for the problem if you wanted to make a jeffree cell you can't really have it in glued fitted in place or it will stop resonating need a membrane to allow the vibrations of the crystal and hold in the liquid your vibrating in ..
It would be nice to make a jeffree cell but for these experiments i am just seeing what it would take ,i am no where near it ,i still think i need more amplification to drive the crystal put supersonic waves in amount of liquid that it would take to make one ...at the moment its like peeing in the sea and hope to see the waves really! :lol:
Oh well least i can make out the transfer of waves past something like this kitchen foil is possible should be smoke packet foil ...got to find a smoker in the family !

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:30 am
by Klaas Robers
Crystals can vibrate in quite some different ways. Some of them may emit accoustical waves into the medium where it is in, some others don't. I assume that the cystals that are used for PAL delay lines do (other wise it will not work). So focus first on those. You have a thin glass delay line, try to detatch the crystals from it. Then you get experience in how to do that.

Good luck.

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:25 pm
by Harry Dalek
Klaas Robers wrote:Crystals can vibrate in quite some different ways. Some of them may emit accoustical waves into the medium where it is in, some others don't. I assume that the cystals that are used for PAL delay lines do (other wise it will not work). So focus first on those. You have a thin glass delay line, try to detatch the crystals from it. Then you get experience in how to do that.

Good luck.


Klaas i am in 2 minds about the delay line i found about 5 or 6 of them in my junk box pretty much similar to the one below
Us_delay_line.jpg

Ultrasonic delay line from a color TV (delay time 64┬Ás), showing path of sound waves (pink) and transducers (yellow, upper left)

Now i know where the signal gos in and where it comes out feeding in a 4 mhz carrier and testing the out put i will see if i can get any thing out of it ..I had tried to use it a while back as a like a crystal but got no oscillations i could detect i just noticed some one has done this already with testing the signal in and out side of it ...
below 2nd video in the blog
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevb ... ines-work/
I am not really understanding as if the delay line is glass there must be a crystal for the tiny connections on the in and out connections it would be so small not useful here in the supersonic's to move any mass such as a liquid ...If the block is all quartz due to where the connections are its a crystal that cut at a different angle and again i don't think these newer ones will vibrate on the flat sides ...its different to a timing crystal as they do .
I am also wondering about the size factor the 30s jeffree cell crystal was large for sure but it would have to have been not much thicker than todays crystals due to its frequency ..high frequency its thin low its thicker ...may be adjusted to a lager size its mentiond on chris longs site its 1/100th inch thick sound more or less like todays crystal just larger the crystal is a x cut ...
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popula ... ronics.htm

So thats the only thing i have ....no way of telling what today's crystal are cut to but i do know due to the experiment's i have carried out they do oscillate a mass to .......what written below
Screen 00005 (1).jpg
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So pretty much are just smaller version's ,it must be easier to vibrate a smaller mass a smaller crystal than a larger one ...here i am confused as the Mr jeffree's circuit i have copied should do a better job of moving a smaller crystal i am using .....factors that are different it was mentioned that you could use 7 or 14 mhz crystal i am a bit lower here but i would again thing using a lower frequency the effect would be easier to do ...another factor is the Valve used ,i have no idea what he used apart from it was a older valve but not much older think mines 40s ...
I do see an increase supersonic waves in the liquid with an increase on voltage to the oscillator ..but i am close to the working max plate voltage 400 volts i think ..that's why i was thinking of a amplification stage after the oscillator ..
Those experimenting with the crystals apart from Jeffree cell but also in liquids had oscillators with High frequency transformers from 0 to 3000v across the crystal to drive them variable to use different frequencies .
So back to the delay line klaas i will look more into it as i am no expert on them and i know you are .
I would on the timing crystal side like to get my hands on vintage ones but ones i have seen are only in the khz range so far ...these old ones i think also mention its cut
download.jpg
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Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:36 pm
by Harry Dalek
Thats interesting DIY

youtu.be/j7CS4A8wB1E

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:47 pm
by Harry Dalek
Looking into the FT-243 crystal ,it interests me you can open them up for a start and seem a better cut crystal .
looking at the crystal in the grinding video below they are very thick ...and it still works with the spring in the crystal holder and in hes test the weight on it i am pretty sure a modern crystal would not work doing this to it ...fascinating !

youtu.be/SnQ39HPOlG8

youtu.be/07gIwVnAXrw

Heres a FT171B opened up a touch bigger than the FT 243 i am interested to see the insides of the older crystals and there sizes
paraset_xtal_g7pvs.jpg


The quartz crystal blanks are interesting

http://www.af4k.com/crystals.htm

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:52 pm
by Harry Dalek
I know the Jeffree cell uses a X cut crystal reading up a At cut is low variation of resonance frequency with temperature and a X cut gives maximum change in dimension with applied voltage .
Just working out what is an X cut crystal where to get one or do i have one ...looking into this
image (1).jpg
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I was also reading up on Peter Yanzcer go at one using the oscillator i am mentioning he thought the oscillator needed to be giving 400 volts P/P out output .

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:41 pm
by Harry Dalek
Out of interest i found out what looks to be a 30's crystal as in what it looks like inside see pictures below ,i wish i got to see this lot sooner they were going very cheap least the fellow was kind enough to show the insides of the rarer one .
The 3 large 8 MHZ WW2 crystals were a good buy so i am going to test one of these when they turn up .
s-l500 (1).jpg
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Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:34 pm
by gary
Wow Harry! I wish I had .00001% of your scavenging skills - how do you do it?

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:59 pm
by Andrew Davie
gary wrote:Wow Harry! I wish I had .00001% of your scavenging skills - how do you do it?


Yes, it's like you tell Harry you need a 1928 Morphomatic Experitron Barrier Transfigurator.... and he says "sure, what type... the square one or the round one?"
Impressive.

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:45 am
by Harry Dalek
Well Gary and Andrew its amazing whats still out there i was too late for the 30's crystal shown...i found some other rare ones but most were silly price's to low in frequency but its nice to know what they looked like size wise insides frequency ...since the y and x cut were the most common crystal cuts then you might be lucky there ..The WW2 ones turned up as i was searching nice and cheap at the frequency range between 7 and 14 mhz so good enough there to snap up they are mine now .
I was researching the FT 243 crystals my original idea was to try and get some of these at http://www.af4k.com/crystals.htm they do have also some late 30's i think http://www.af4k.com/antique_crystals.htm best buy would be the FT 243 Blanks
blanks.jpg
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i think you have to email him the order first bit of a pain buying on line
We offer a box of over 100 nice clean quartz crystal blanks made for
use in FT243 holders.These are a nice mix from about 1000 kHz up to 8500 kHz.
See photo below:
We sell the whole box for $10.00 plus $7.00 for USA Shipping.

We also have a box of 200 nice clean quartz crystal blanks made for
use in FT243 holders.These are a nice mix from about 1000 kHz up to 8500 kHz.
See photo below:
We sell the whole box for $15.00 plus $7.00 for USA Shipping.

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:22 am
by Harry Dalek
I might be barking up the wrong tree here but as far as i can see on a lower bandwidth there's a device i ordered a few of to try that does a similar idea to the oscillator crystal idea more efficiently...running it lower than its needed and what it was made to do .... i think it would do the same job in a jeffree cell .
I am getting the 1.7 MHZ versions but there are 2.4 MHZ versions
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-PCS-2 ... aa18e26d-7
i am not sure if they go higher than this yet ..
Viewing the video explaining the device's effect in the drawing part i could see the same result i was getting on a tiny scale on the 4 Mhz crystal.
It seems to me another way of doing it ,perhaps good enough for nbtv

youtu.be/aKhPj7uFD0Y

youtu.be/eul2cuPB_XQ

Re: The Jeffree Cell

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:17 pm
by Harry Dalek
once upon a time DIY ! 1928