The Cyclops a Vidicon project

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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:45 pm

[/quote]
Steve Anderson wrote:Harry, I concur with Klass's posting above. We're all learning, all acquiring wisdom from others and experience when things don't quite go as planned.


Its always fun trying a project but nicer knowing its more likely to work than a leap of faith ! Reason i have used your DAC circuit now 3 times and Klass hes modulation circuit twice ....i also like to be able to repeat something then it sinks in more and doing something once .

One of the most useful skills is filtering out 'The Wheat from the Chaff'. The 'net IS a wonderful resource but it's also full of downright rubbish. Filtering one out from the other has become an essential skill in this day and age, whatever field you may be involved in.


Yes its some thing i didn't realise more so the pre internet magazine thing i didn't think that mistakes would be in in published circuits ,i recall Steve O saying the Argus monitor flaws and my SSTV at the start fiasco.
My thinking lately is trusting what i know works and if its new i want it shown to work and explained ..i even of late got the breadboard out out to check as in testing my 4066 switching circuit here .

One of the best tools for learning in this realm is a circuit simulator, they're not perfect but they are a very useful tool. Instead of spending time and money on building a circuit that is supposed to work, you simulate it and if the circuit is up to the task all should be well. A circuit that would take you hours to physically build can be simulated in a few minutes.


That is something i have yet to try ,would be nice to have catalog of parts in software form so i do see the point of it !

It's great for learning the "What If I do This?" So you change a resistor value and see what happens. They take a while to get to grips with but it is worth it. You can't blow anything up, you can change things as you see fit, and you can do all this while you're on an airplane (rules allowing).


BTW does it show if a part is destroyed along circuit chain with wrong high voltage ? or it just says this change will not work ? I should look if there's any videos out there as i have not seen one working .

There are a number of freebies out there - others please make suggestions - but the full-blown versions do cost quite a lot. But even so the freebies are still a useful tool for NBTV stuff. The freebies usually limit you to the number of components in a circuit or some other constraint - so all you do is break a circuit down into bite-sized pieces and do one chunk at a time...as if you were actually testing it on the bench!

Steve A.


I will look about whats out there ,lack of software parts might be a problem you would want as many as possible but i don't do that in the real world just most of the time stick to sameish opamps and timers and such BC type transistors ...
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Steve Anderson » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:30 pm

Most simulators I've seen come with a small or quite a reasonable library of parts, you add to that by downloading the Spice circuit for the component from the manufacturer (generally free - they want to convince you that's the part you need). Older obsolete parts you may have a problem with - something like an 0C71. The Spice file is just a text file, usually just a couple of kilo-bytes.

No, they won't tell you if a part is destroyed, but you can measure (say) the power in each component. If a BC107 is dissipating 10W you can assume it's dead! Time for a re-think! You can measure currents, voltages, power and a whole lot more. But always remember the devices are 'typical', you need to consider if the gain of a transistor is low, how does that affect things...and the converse too.

Also simulators assume things are perfect, no capacitance between tracks, no resistance in wires, perfect power supplies - but you can add those nasties in as a 'phantom' components. No leakage in capacitors etc. But for what we deal with here really that's no big deal and mostly can be forgotten.

Most will not include electro-mechanical items, like motors, there's just too many variables, but pots and the like - yes. If can fit on a PCB then there should be a Spice file for it.

But, there is a limit. You most likely cannot place in a software-driven device, that is going a bit far...but hey, soon you probably will be able to.

Steve A.

Also most allow you to run a Monti-Carlo simulation where is you specify the resistors (say) are 5% how does that affect things over a large (random) sample.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:40 pm

Testing today i am happy with where i am up to have multi system ramp frame and line so moving on the the deflection side of it .
Double checking below every thing fits ,had to size select parts for this problem no mistakes here is good news too .
Deflection circuit added here as well ,i still have to finish it off and test ...Have too look into the deflection coils next hook those up to this .
The software Steve i will have a look whats out there ,i should at least give it a go as i like the sound of it .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Klaas Robers » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:28 am

Do you think Steve that there is a good simulation description of a Vidicon? Of the vidicon that Harry happens to have? And of the deflection coils that Harry has for it? I fear that especially for the experiments he is just going to do, that the current simulators will not help him. Because, how do you judge the picture of a video signal in the simulator? Is there a video monitor in the simulator?
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:01 am

Klass i think the variables here for sure ! what i am up to now the deflection side of it what i will do is take measurements of the deflection coils ,i also have a magnetically focused beam here...a simulator would be interesting may be it could work out focus and deflection with the correct numbers bit beyond me at the moment but i will gather readings on the yoke i am using .
The coils were discussed via Troy and labguy as Troy used another one of these deflection yokes on he's 625 line iconoscope camera
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my results
red/ black 2.8 ohm .85mH
Green /white 54.6 ohm 11.6mH
Brown/white with brown strip 104.5 ohm 225mH
Orange/white with orange strp 2.65K
Purple/purple with white strp 2.64K
Grey N/C it seems may shielding as mentioned above ?
So pretty close to Troys results Troy didn't have to worry about magnetic focus i do here i think the brown 104 ohm is the focus coil the 2k resistance i am not sure about this and its use.
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:32 am

Klaas Robers wrote:Do you think Steve that there is a good simulation description of a Vidicon?

I very much doubt it. Very few older components have been created for use in simulators. Models (the text file that describes the component to the simulator) have generally been created for existing production devices available from (say) the 70s onward.

Some clever guys have created models for the more popular valves/tubes (ECC83/EL84 for example) but that's about it. Nothing as exotic as a vidicon as far as I know.

Simulators are mainly aimed at professionals who are working with current devices in new products - not those of us using older techniques. There is no reason why a model couldn't be created for a vidicon, there's just not the demand for it. The semiconductor manufacturers create the models for their products to help sell them. If there's a model for a certain device, you try it and the simulator says all is well there's a good chance you'll buy or specify it.

Steve A.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:57 pm

Steve 70s parts onwards isn't to bad ,i would of expected later than this .
It is sad pretty much all CRT image tubes such are just now forgotten history for this sort of stuff perhaps another hobby in the making for future hobbyists ,the a lot of data is still around for those interested .
Looking a little into this software last night looks interesting ,i have to give a few of them a go and see if its for me .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:50 pm

Ok i left off need to work out ways to connect various parts of the vidicon hardware to my circuits power supply , looking at the deflection coil and focus coil connections,i might use the same plug to resolder the connections to output this and resolder from the other side of the plug to the deflection circuit and focus coil.
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i also had another look at the preamp ,and how i am going to connect the Target connection to the Target ring ,thinking here of using the vidicon cover and removing making a large hole for the front either that or taping it in place ..no soldering to the Target ring as i read !
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Next i am looking into the Tube its self,and its plug and connections .Reading the PDF data sheet focus can be either varying the current to the focus coil or varying voltage to grid 3 a little confusing i am not sure if it means a touch of both to get correct focus or i have a choice of electrostatic focusing or magnetic focusing any case i can do both if need be .
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The XQ1290 my vidicon same replacement for the 9677
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Not sure what this number means a reason there must have been .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Steve Anderson » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:50 pm

Harry Dalek wrote:Steve 70s parts onwards isn't to bad ,i would of expected later than this . Looking a little into this software last night looks interesting ,i have to give a few of them a go and see if its for me .

The early simulators started to appear with the emergence of the IBM PC and its clones, though some were written for other OS's. At that time the BC107/8/9 series (and many others) were in volume production - remember the BC10x series are from the 60s. Even the updates to libraries for the simulators still include the venerable BC10x devices, they're not in the volume production they once were as plastic versions are far cheaper than the metal can varieties.

However I have not seen a model for a Germanium device (e.g. 0C71 or AC126), but then again I haven't been looking for one. But there are clever chaps out there that could write a model given the incentive - a few beers.

Steve A.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Hi Steve i never really thought about it till now but in the future i can see there could be a whole hobby just simulating circuits instead of constructing them ..interesting .
I have taken your advice and looked at the simulators mainly at the moment drawing a schematic would be good i have looked a fair few ,the one i liked was a on line program would not let you save the circuit as a file with out paying but could just screen grab it ,have not been able to get on again need a email verification does not seem to be working well didn't yesterday...but looking at others ...you get fussy seeing the look of the results and how quick they work finding a part and the wiring ..i will keep looking.
Last edited by Harry Dalek on Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm

I am wiring up the deflection yoke and Vidicon tube to the circuits and power supply today ...going to try this idea for the target ring hold the connection in place seem ok no movement nice and tight in place.
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Steve Anderson » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Yes Harry, there are many simulators out there to choose from, same as PCB design software. Most have a freebie cut-down version that is generally enough for hobbyists and students. They hope that once you turn 'professional' you'll stick with their version and buy the real deal - and influence the company you work for to use it exclusively.

Steve A.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:07 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:Yes Harry, there are many simulators out there to choose from, same as PCB design software. Most have a freebie cut-down version that is generally enough for hobbyists and students. They hope that once you turn 'professional' you'll stick with their version and buy the real deal - and influence the company you work for to use it exclusively.

Steve A.


Yes so many ,the ease of use and end result ...transistors ic's such on offer in the software are tending to make me fussy as what i will stick with ,i'll have another look tonight/

Edit
I ended up going back to circuit lab on line i really like its easy to use but just as i finished a power supply it go's over it with a screen asking for membership email conformation which they never send in the first place now that's a pain i am done with that site.

Tried some new on line schematic drawing this one worked out bit harder than circuit lab but least it has a transformer in its parts list site below
https://www.lucidchart.com/documents/ed ... 30841b31/0
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Klaas Robers » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:01 am

Harry, you are missing an insulating part for the front of the Vidicon, which holds a simple spring making contact to the targetring of the tube. That is why you need to make a hole in the plastic cap to hold the wire. There is no need for a "firm" contact as the input impedance of the amplifier is in the order of 1 Megohm.

This connection can be very high ohmic, so a thin wire is more than enough. The advantage of a thin wire is that the capacity to ground is low, and that is important for optimal sharpness of the picture.

A problem for you is that you don't know the optimal position of the tube in the deflection yoke. What I see from you gives me the feeling that the tube should be shifted more into the yoke. The target ring should be about 8 mm free from the front of the yoke. I don't know what happens if you have it shifted more out, as you have now. But you will see it from the pictures that you get. I any way, experiment with it as soon as you have a picture out.
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Re: The Cyclops a Vidicon project

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:23 am

Klaas Robers wrote:Harry, you are missing an insulating part for the front of the Vidicon, which holds a simple spring making contact to the targetring of the tube. That is why you need to make a hole in the plastic cap to hold the wire. There is no need for a "firm" contact as the input impedance of the amplifier is in the order of 1 Megohm.

This connection can be very high ohmic, so a thin wire is more than enough. The advantage of a thin wire is that the capacity to ground is low, and that is important for optimal sharpness of the picture.

A problem for you is that you don't know the optimal position of the tube in the deflection yoke. What I see from you gives me the feeling that the tube should be shifted more into the yoke. The target ring should be about 8 mm free from the front of the yoke. I don't know what happens if you have it shifted more out, as you have now. But you will see it from the pictures that you get. I any way, experiment with it as soon as you have a picture out.



Hi Klaas
Yes i didn't get anything like that with the tube and yoke ...its now held in place as you know touching ,if its a problem i can easily remove the cap and try some thing else .
The connection and wire to the pre amp came with yokes preamp its more than likely made for some thing other than this tube slightly older vintage ,the electronics don't look to old perhaps 70's but very high quality part ,i think it has a mu metal shielding as well.
It has a fairly good adjusting manual movement control of the tube back and forwards and even another to turn it a touch side ways either way control which you can see on the vidicon yoke.
It had crossed my mind about the correct position of the vidicon in the yoke i didn't know about the 8mm position at the front but ! so that's good bit of information ....the tube still does slide in an out it is firmly in place but can still move in and out for now,
This is the reason i have not yet bolted the vidicon yoke to the case ...i can see the optical focal point and the focal point adjustment range with my manual movement of the yoke control but i didn't know yet what you are thinking the correct position of the tube in the yoke for the magnetic fields as this would i was thinking only be known by experimenting moving it in and out here was just a guess for now ...i didn't want to be drilling holes twice to bolt the yoke in place more logical to know where it go's then ,i was thinking it could very well be a tiny adjustment .
I am still wiring every thing up tested the heater on its own power supply as in the above schematic posting but did put in 2 current limiting resistors ease it back into life .
i will not power it up till i know i have deflection next step ...have had not much time today to check this will see it i can test tomorrow afternoon .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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