The Mongrel

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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Steve Anderson » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:45 pm

There's more to this change than just altering the supplies...my suggestion (untried)...the +8.0v value will/may alter depending on your ramp amplitude and average voltage. I suggest getting those done before building this...there may be some changes required as a result...

R101, 105, 106 & 109 need to be mounted right on the socket pins.

Steve A.

Deflection 101.gif
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:45 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:There's more to this change than just altering the supplies...my suggestion (untried)...the +8.0v value will/may alter depending on your ramp amplitude and average voltage. I suggest getting those done before building this...there may be some changes required as a result...

R101, 105, 106 & 109 need to be mounted right on the socket pins.

Steve A.


Thanks Steve for looking over the idea much appreciated ! the ramp amplitude is already adjustable so i can adjust this for the new deflection circuit .
Very much understand the design idea now changed is untested and the variation in part values the Triodes voltage and such might need more adjusting but its a better start than what i have been using so far .
Just been Waiting to see what you though before doing any thing .
I do need to make a negative supply addition to the power supply so be a few days before i get stated on the the deflection amplifier .
Once again great help here on the project ! And thanks for the new neat schematic i would of been way off on the resistors on the cathodes ~! .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Steve Anderson » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:15 pm

Harry Dalek wrote:I do need to make a negative supply addition...

I meant to mention the -ve supply only needs to be quite low current, for the two deflection circuits a total of 4mA, that's all. Unless it needs to power something else as well.

Some component values may need changing depending what tubes you choose to use...and the amplitude of the input, minimum and maximum.

Don't worry if you can't get 310V (positive or negative), changes can be made for other voltages, though not too low, anything greater than 250V should be OK, perhaps a bit less...however that depends on the CRT you're planning to use...

Steve A.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:38 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:
Harry Dalek wrote:I do need to make a negative supply addition...

I meant to mention the -ve supply only needs to be quite low current, for the two deflection circuits a total of 4mA, that's all. Unless it needs to power something else as well.

Some component values may need changing depending what tubes you choose to use...and the amplitude of the input.

Steve A.


Thanks Steve

Well that's got me thinking i wonder if could tap this off the negative supply from a earlier stage of my CRT HV DC supply, if we only need 4mA the voltage part of it could be equaled to the positive with a bit of trial and error with resistance any case i will get it one way or another .
Yes i will just see how it go's circuit values is but that's on the cards if i have to .
The dual triode valve something like a 12AX7 , 12AU7 i have that type.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Steve Anderson » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:05 pm

OK, I've already made some changes, I'll also change the tubes to two 12AX7's/ECC83's, so don't go building it yet...

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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:39 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:OK, I've already made some changes, I'll also change the tubes to two 12AX7's/ECC83's, so don't go building it yet...

Steve A.


No will not be for a few days more than likely Thursday , start of the week i don't have much time apart from thinking about it while working ; )
So thanks there for having another look using those tube types i think there is just a gain difference between them 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100, while the 12AT7 has 60. The 12AU7 has the smallest, at just 20.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Steve Anderson » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:12 pm

The 12AT7 is certainly a possible with a mu of 60, but the 12AU7 with a mu of 20 is probably a non-starter. Plus I think they're more current hungry, never used them so I may be wrong. I'll have a look at the 'AT7 and see if it's possible...it depends on what you have available...and of course their age and condition...

Steve A.

Later...the 'AT7 looks possible, but some circuit changes required...tomorrow, it's my 5:30 PM here, time to call it a day...
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:57 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:The 12AT7 is certainly a possible with a mu of 60, but the 12AU7 with a mu of 20 is probably a non-starter. Plus I think they're more current hungry, never used them so I may be wrong. I'll have a look at the 'AT7 and see if it's possible...it depends on what you have available...and of course their age and condition...

Steve A.

Later...the 'AT7 looks possible, but some circuit changes required...tomorrow, it's my 5:30 PM here, time to call it a day...


I have both the AX7 and AT7 all pretty much pinout identical only the gain difference as you know used a lot in old amplifiers i have been reading .
i think i have rubbed some markings off them since using them for this pulling them in and out of the sockets not being careful enough might be pot luck what's what i will double check which ones still have markings .
i have noticed very few have it but some of my Valves have markings of the top of round bit of the tube safe from fingers touching unless you do ; 0 )
I would like to try these as they are nice and small.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Steve Anderson » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:07 pm

The 12AX7/ECC83 was (still is) the darling of tube amplifier low-level stages. Hence their prices. They are still being produced in various countries, mainly Russia and China along with a bunch of power-output tubes. But you need deep pockets, especially for the few that are still made in the west.

For our uses (not audio) there's a plethora of other tubes to choose from which are dirt-cheap in comparison as no-one wants them, but they work just as well (even for audio). They just haven't been 'discovered' yet. e.g. there's a Compactron which is a triple triode, each section electrically identical to a 12AX7/ECC83. Cost? Small change compared to a dual version 12AX7/ECC83. The 12-pin sockets are also still available and also cheap.

Another thing to consider is many tubes were made with different heater specifications to their otherwise identical 6.3V counterparts. As we are building from the ground up why not use them? We can make the necessary arrangements for the different heater current/voltage. No rocket science involved there...

"In 1960, the writing was on the wall: Tubes were being bested in every area by transistors, which did not require heater power, did not generate as much heat, and were a tiny fraction of the size. GE's engineers made an interesting decision: To give tubes one more shot in the war with transistors, and push off the inevitable end of the vacuum path for a few more years.

What GE did was combine multiple common tube types into "fat" tubes—as many as four in a single glass envelope, all heated from the same filament. The idea was to reduce the amount of power required to heat the tubes and the space they required on the circuit board, as well as the associated costs of multiple sockets. In a very crude way, GE was applying the concept of integrated circuits to tubes."


The above from this website...

http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/Comp ... ndex.shtml

One supplier I've used in the past with no problems, even though based in Canada...and I'm in S.E.Asia...

http://www.pacifictv.ca/

Steve A.

12AE10 CompactronTube.jpg


Compactron Tube Bases.jpg
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Klaas Robers » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:50 pm

Here in EU they were never used. I think because Philips = Valvo = Mullard never made them. Philips started already soon in transistors as well. Firstly in Germanium, OC71, OC72, OC13 and so on. I used them already when I was 15, that was in 1959. Later on Philips switched to Silicium as well, so there was no need to switch the tube production over to compactrons and/or nuvistors.

However, I have a Heathkit wave form monitor (oscilloscope) SB-610 that uses one or two compactrons. This set is from about 1971, so long after I made my first crystal radio with a one transistor (OC13) amplifier. I still have my first Tube-book, that has a transistor part included and no compactrons. I guess that it is from 1962, but I should look that back.

I looked it back, it is of 1961 and there is no 6CW4 nuvistor triode in it. But there are many germanium transistors in it, while the first silicium transistors appeared in the list.
Last edited by Klaas Robers on Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:03 pm

Interesting Vacuum tube idea i can't say i have ever come across the compactron ..so you could get 4 devices in one of those ...wonder if the earlier dual triode or pentode triode has a name ,Hollow state is interesting just pity about they need a heater and the voltage's and size ; 0 ) kidding but they are what they are .

I got a while back after you mentioned the mini tubes a lot of pentodes Russian tubes from the 70s i am not sure what i have yet as i have to check them all if correct if any use at all at the frequency range we work at ,i noticed some have different pin out design some like a little normal mini valve but long wires other squashed base ,but like to try them out in the future ,reason i also mentioned and looked into could they be used as Triodes if needed.
27x 6J1B-V Vintage Vacuum Tiny HF Military Pentode Tubes 24 dollars that's with postage equivalent seems to be 5702 = CK5702 = CK605CX = CV3895
Similar Tubes
Normally replaceable-slightly different:
6148 ; 6Ж1Б ; CK605AX ; CK7083
Other class quality (otherwise equal):
5702WA
https://tubes-store.com/product_info.ph ... ts_id=1235
s-l1600.jpg


Its funny working with valves constructing no matter how i try and place parts neat it ends uo looking like every other valve air wired circuit !
Attachments
83197=15434-6j1b_1.png
83197=15435-6j1b_2.png
83197=15436-6j1b_3.png
83197=15433-6j1b_5.png
83197=15432-6j1b_7.png
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Steve Anderson » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:50 pm

Ah, Nuvistors. I have a few of them, but so far found no real use for them. Generally lower impedance devices, lower voltages, higher currents, similar to the 'Pencil' glass tubes I have and those in Harry's photo above. (My Russian is a bit rusty these days). They're generally around the size of a small sewing thimble, all-metal/ceramic construction...two examples below with a quite small more conventional glass tube on the right...the 6DZ4 (right) has a nominal diameter of 18mm, even so, the 6DZ4 is good to 1,000MHz when used as an oscillator...

Their advantages were operation into VHF and UHF frequencies, often used in the pre-amp stages of oscilloscopes...though no 'multi' versions that I know of, all single devices, they were generally for rather specialised applications...not for the domestic market...

Steve A.

Nuvistor 1.jpg
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:56 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:Ah, Nuvistors. I have a few of them, but so far found no real usefor them. Generally lower impedance devices, lower voltages, higher currents, similar to the 'Pencil' glass tubes I have and those in Harry's photo above. (My Russian is a bit rusty these days). They're generally around the size of a small sewing thimble, all-metal/ceramic construction...two examples below with a quite small more conventional glass tube on the right...the 6DZ4 (right) has a nominal diameter of 18mm, even so, the 6DZ4 is good to 1,000MHz when used as an oscillator...

Their advantages were operation into VHF and UHF frequencies, often used in the pre-amp stages of oscilloscopes...though no 'multi' versions that I know of, all single devices, they were generally for rather specialised applications...not for the domestic market...

Steve A.

Nuvistor 1.jpg


The Nuvistor must be one of the smallest valves made ? reading up on them
there was no space to include a vacuum fitting to evacuate the tube; instead, nuvistors were assembled and processed in a vacuum chamber with simple robotic devices
.
I see on you tube people making radios with them

Found this Video last hurrah of the vacuum tube ...They shot vacuum tubes out of guns ~!


youtu.be/jegSJ0039-A

On the Russian tube codes
"cog sheet" for Russian data sheets

сетки = grid
анод = Anode
экран = Screen or Shield
катод = Cathode
накала = filament
минус = Minus / Negative
плюс = Plus / Positive
ток = Current
напряжение = Voltage
первый = first
второй = second
треть = third
управляющая сетка = Control Grid
экранная сетка = Screen Grid
подавление сетки = Suppression grid
связь = connection
штифт = pin
провод = wire
нет соединения = no connect
Пожизненная часов = lifetime hours

(Don't expect me to PRONOUNCE any of that!)
Also
mkA = micro Amp uA
mA = milli Amp mA
B = V for volts, i.e. 90B = 90 volts.

Receiver tubes Russian Coding
In the 1950s a 5-element system (GOST 5461-59, later 13393-76) was adopted in the (then) Soviet Union for designating receiver vacuum tubes. All Russian tubes have factory logo and date of production (month / year ) possibly engraved on glass and ink stamped quality control number (OTK)
The 1st element (from left to right) is (for receiving tubes) a number specifying filament voltage in volts (rounded off to the nearest whole number), or (for cathode-ray tubes) the screen diagonal or diameter in cm (rounded-off to the nearest whole number).
The 2nd element is a Cyrillic character specifying the type of device:
o D (Russian: Д) - diode, including damper diodes.
o H (Russian: Х) - double diode.
o Ts (Russian: Ц) - low-power rectifier (kenotron).
o S (Russian: С) - triode.
o N (Russian: Н) - double triode.
o E (Russian: Э) - tetrode.
o P (Russian: П) - output pentode, or a beam tetrode.
o Zh (Russian: Ж) - sharp-cutoff pentode. (also transliterated sh or j)
o K (Russian: К) - variable-mu / remote-cutoff pentode.
o R (Russian: Р) - double pentode or a double tetrode.
o G (Russian: Г) - combined triode-diode.
o B (Russian: Б) - combined diode-pentode.
o F (Russian: Ф) - combined triode-pentode.
o I (Russian: И) - combined triode-hexode, triode-heptode or triode-octode.
o A (Russian: А) - pentagrid converter.
o V (Russian: В) - vacuum tube with secondary emission.
o L (Russian: Л) - cathode-ray tube.
o Ye (Russian: Е) - "magic eye" tube (e.g. used as a tuning indicator).
The 3rd element is a number - a series designator that differentiates between different devices of the same type.
The 4th element denotes vacuum tube construction (base, envelope):
o P (Russian: П) - small 9-pin or 7-pin glass envelope (22.5 or 19 mm in diameter).
o A (Russian: А) - subminiature glass envelope (5 to 8 mm in diameter) with flexible leads.
o B (Russian: Б) - subminiature glass envelope (8 to 10.2 mm in diameter) with flexible leads.
o S (Russian: С) - glass envelope (greater than 22.5 mm in diameter), typically with an octal base.
o N (Russian: Н) - nuvistor.
o K (Russian: К) - metal-ceramic envelope.
o D (Russian: Д) - glass-metal envelope with disc connections (for UHF operation).
For all-metal tubes the 4th element is omitted.
The 5th element is optional. It consists of a dash ("-") followed by a single character or a combination of characters, and denotes special characteristics (if any) of the tube:
o V (Russian: В) - increased reliability and mechanical ruggedness (such as low susceptibilty to noise and microphonics).
o R (Russian: Р) - even better than V
o Ye (Russian: Е) - extended service life.
o D (Russian: Д) - exceptionally long service life.
o I (Russian: И) - optimised for "pulsed" (i.e. switching) mode of operation.
For instance, -YeV (Russian: -ЕВ) added after 6N2P (i.e. 6Н2П-ЕВ) signifies that this variant of the 6N2P has extended service life and low noise and microphonics. More often than not this means actual differences in internal construction of the tube compared to the "basic" type, but sometimes designators like -V and -I simply mean that the tube was specially selected for those characteristics from the regular-quality production at the factory.
The new designation convention was applied retrospectively to many of the previously-produced types as well as to those produced afterwards. For example, a Soviet-produced copy of the 6L6 was originally manufactured in the 1940s under its American designation (in Latin lettering), or sometimes a Cyrillic transcription of it, 6Л6. Under the above convention the tube was redesignated 6P3S (Russian: 6П3С). The 6V6 tube became 6P6S (Russian: 6П6С). However, many specialised Russian tubes, such as special military or transmitter tubes, do not follow the above convention.
Some of the better-known Russian equivalents of West European and American tubes are the 6P14P (Russian: 6П14П), an EL84; 6N8S (Russian: 6Н8С), a 6SN7; and 6P3S-E (Russian: 6П3С-Е), a version of the 6L6.
Transmitter tubes
There is another designation system for high-power tubes such as transmitter ones.
The 1st element (from left to right) is always G (Russian Г, for "generatornaya").
The 2nd element (with some notable exceptions such as the Г807) is:

o K (Russian: К) - shortwave (<= 25 MHz) tube.
o U (Russian: У) - ultra-shortwave (25-600 MHz) tube.
o S (Russian: С) - centimetric-wavelength (> 600 MHz) tube.
o M (Russian: М) - modulator tube.
o I (Russian: И) - impulse tube.
The 3rd element consists of a dash ("-") followed by the design serial number. If the tube has to be force-cooled there might follow a letter 'A' (Russian 'А') for water-cooled or 'B' (Russian 'Б') for air-cooled.
Popular transmitter tubes include the ГУ-29, ГУ-50, ГМ-70 and Г-807 (the Russian 807 analogue).
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Klaas Robers » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:21 pm

Applications: I made myself a griddipper with a nuvistor in the oscillator. And I remember that in my beginning years at Philips Research, working in colour TV, that the pre-amplifiers of the 3-Plumbicon CTV cameras used two nuvistors in cascade for the input stage. Very small capacitance was of importance, as the Plumbicon target can be seen as a high ohmic current source with a low capacitance. And then, if you want to be flat to 5 MHz every pF is of importance. These input amplifiers were built against the image pick up tube and the wire to the amplifier was just a few centimetres. At that moment the LDK-3 cameras were state of the art and all professional TV studio's used them, although they were very expensive.

Philips was the only company that could make the Plumbicons, and making Plumbicons was patented. So Plumbicons were also very expensive.
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Re: The Mongrel

Postby Harry Dalek » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:06 pm

Klaas Robers wrote:Applications: I made myself a griddipper with a nuvistor in the oscillator. And I remember that in my beginning years at Philips Research, working in colour TV, that the pre-amplifiers of the 3-Plumbicon CTV cameras used two nuvistors in cascade for the input stage. Very small capacitance was of importance, as the Plumbicon target can be seen as a high ohmic current source with a low capacitance. And then, if you want to be flat to 5 MHz every pF is of importance. These input amplifiers were built against the image pick up tube and the wire to the amplifier was just a few centimetres. At that moment the LDK-3 cameras were state of the art and all professional TV studio's used them, although they were very expensive.

Philips was the only company that could make the Plumbicons, and making Plumbicons was patented. So Plumbicons were also very expensive.


I wonder if it was some thing like this plumbicon 3 colour tube camera ?

Back to the project i should be able to get the negative supply done tomorrow ,i will scrap the old deflection amplifiers and make a start there .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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