The PMT in control of the Devil

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The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:21 pm

Its a bit of a reverse of the idea i originally was thinking but more i have thought about its really just a clock and sawtooth generators and i like the idea to have the saw tooth generators in the PMT case ..makes it feel more like a camera.
Plan 2 is build a 4060 clock and for a start around NBTV 32 line or round abouts working it out its really 33 line i think using dead on 12 hz and 400hz as the 4060 will out put ..from pins 2 and 14 might be able to try some other line rates outputting from the other pins later on .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:18 pm

The 4060 as a clock works out fine i have 400 hz and 12hz and 25hz i want to use for higher line rates ... what i was planning to do now was use a a frequency multiplier on the 400 hz but circuit is not Cooperating best i can get out of it is 540 hz ... want to know if it looks correct
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Last edited by Harry Dalek on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:59 pm

It possibly is component tolerances, not just the Rs or Cs, but the PLL (the 4046). These things are notoriously sensitive to the supply voltage, This isn't a problem in the NBTVA motor control circuit as the VCO isn't used. The HC etc versions are far better, but you can't use them above 6V.

Next, what frequencies are you trying to get out of this? What is the reference frequency going into pin 14 of the 4046? (Note, it's not pin 64!). If it's not 1kHz you' need to fiddle around with some caps and resistors. What voltage are you running this on? It does make a substantial difference.

Given those figures I should be able to steer you in the right direction.

Steve A.

Note: I corrected some poor English in the first paragraph.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:39 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:It possibly is component tolerances, not just the Rs or Cs, but the PLL (the 4046). These things are notoriously sensitive to the supply voltage, The HC etc versions are far better, but you can't use them above 6V. This isn't a problem in the NBTVA motor control circuit as the VCO isn't used.


Hi Steve my 4060 is a HC so i have been running this on 5 volts cd4046be mc14017bcp 74hc4060be the 4060 clock works well i am feeding 400 hz to pin 14 of the 4046.

Next, what frequencies are you trying to get out of this?


A least double but i was hoping to have a range of frequencies multiplied from the 400hz or lower frequencies my 4060 outputs

What is the reference frequency going into pin 14 of the 4046?


At the moment using 400 hz but i have a range frequencies below this i could try also one such as 200hz

(Note, it's not pin 64!).


Yes i noticed that had me wondering so i looked for similar circuits just to make sure it was pin 14...i have been bitten on the bottom more than once with internet circuits so i double check if there are other versions of the same circuit .

If it's not 1kHz you' need to fiddle around with some caps and resistors. What voltage are you running this on? It does make a substantial difference.

Given those figures I should be able to steer you in the right direction.

Steve A.


I was thinking reading the circuits this circuit idea had a input range from 1 to 1khz and then times that by the multi switch position on the 4017 from 1 to 9 times the input frequency ...i just seem to be getting just below or a touch higher than the input frequency 540 hz highest .

I did try to adjust the 4046 resistors caps it lowers the out put frequency but nothing higher more head scratching !
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:52 pm

The idea is Steve i want clock that out puts 400 hz and 12hz and worked out i could also have 25 hz out of its last clock pin for my PMT camera to feed to your saw tooth circuits which i will build again here and modify if need be for higher line rates ..this saves my stuffing around with the Devil monitor its doing enough at the moment as a monitor .
The higher line rates i need a frequency multiplier what i am working on at the moment ,this would make the Flying spot camera multi system for a few different line rates .
Well thats the plan it would be easier just to go with 32 line but i wanted to try for the other too.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:01 pm

Right, 400Hz reference frequency and you want 800/1200/1600 and so on up to 3600Hz, correct? This cannot generate frequencies lower unless followed by a divider.

If you're using HC devices at 5V the Rs and Cs will be possibly be very different, this is an analogue chip with some logic thrown in. If you're still using a CD/HEF device for the 4017 that also needs to run on 5V - I know that's stating the obvious.

There is also another huge difference between the CD/HEF devices and the HC versions. The HC version VCO cannot be swept over more than a 4:1 ratio. In the vast majority of applications this isn't a problem, but here it is. The HEF/CD versions can be swept over a ratio in excess of 16:1. Just because the both carry the 4046 label doesn't mean anything, they are design-wise very different devices. This is a problem when incorporating analogue devices with logic silicon. Compromises everywhere.

So the upshot is that this isn't going to do what you want, sorry.

If you can state in total, completely, what frequencies you want then perhaps I can work something out.

Steve A.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:58 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:Right, 400Hz reference frequency and you want 800/1200/1600 and so on up to 3600Hz, correct? This cannot generate frequencies lower unless followed by a divider.


Yes if i use just 400hz but i can also use the other output frequencies of the 4060 and get some in between but 400hz used just for now have to start some where ,

If you're using HC devices at 5V the Rs and Cs will be possibly be very different, this is an analogue chip with some logic thrown in. If you're still using a CD/HEF device for the 4017 that also needs to run on 5V - I know that's stating the obvious.

Well the 4060 is the hc device and its the one not giving any problems in its circuit ....so running the 3 ic's on 5 volts seems correct.....i recall i had problems with this brand of 4046 on motor speed control on the PMT camera nipkow motor it rings a bell it was voltage sensitive .

There is also another huge difference between the CD/HEF devices and the HC versions. The HC version VCO cannot be swept over more than a 4:1 ratio. In the vast majority of applications this isn't a problem, but here it is. The HEF/CD versions can be swept over a ratio in excess of 16:1. Just because the both carry the 4046 label doesn't mean anything, they are design-wise very different devices. This is a problem when incorporating analogue devices with logic silicon. Compromises everywhere.

Yes i believe that with the 4046 only that one of the circuits does have my ic as the one used so this is confusing .

So the upshot is that this isn't going to do what you want, sorry.


Ok another internet blunder ,i think i do have one of 2 lm565 which uses the same sort of idea .

If you can state in total, completely, what frequencies you want then perhaps I can work something out.


Well it doesn't have to be NBTV standard but doubling 800 hz gives 60 line and so on its really what can the multiplier do a few higher line rates would be interesting least up around the 120 line ,just makes sense doing this give the thing a bit of a range .

BTW i ended up buying 2 Tl071 for the preamp to try when i check the preamp again i have a bit of a cold at the moment so just doing a little indoor hobby work stay warm ... :wink:
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:15 pm

Harry, wouldn't it be easier to start with a higher frequency and divide that down to whatever you wish?

Let's say 40kHz, from that you can get a whole bunch of various line rates, then divide that by however many lines you want per frame. Say a 4060 (and maybe a few gates) to get the line rates you wish followed by a 4040 to select lines per fame (again possibly with a few gates). If you only want powers of 2 for 32/64/128/256 lines then the gates wouldn't be required.

Makes sense to me.

If you can say what frame rates and lines per frame you wish I can knock something simple up quite quickly.

Steve A.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:51 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:Harry, wouldn't it be easier to start with a higher frequency and divide that down to whatever you wish?


Yes for the line rate for sure i am not great with these ic's what i wanted what i could work out i knew this Ic would give me both the line and framing frequency at least for 32 line i was not expecting the problem then multiplying .

Let's say 40kHz, from that you can get a whole bunch of various line rates, then divide that by however many lines you want per frame. Say a 4060 (and maybe a few gates) to get the line rates you wish followed by a 4040 to select lines per fame (again possibly with a few gates). If you only want powers of 2 for 32/64/128/256 lines then the gates wouldn't be required.


I am a bit of dumb dumb with digital electronics i and sorry to say but i understand its more logical.... power of 2 sounds good i do have the 4040 many 4060s'

Makes sense to me.


i think i went wrong here worrying about getting the framing frequency from the same ic your way of thinking i don't have to worry about and use another ic.

If you can say what frame rates and lines per frame you wish I can knock something simple up quite quickly.

Steve A.

[/quote]

Those line rates you just mentioned are fine i would be very happy with something like that to play around with ...frame rate would have to be 12 so i could still use my monitor ,i wanted 25hz to try later on but its not a bother ....
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:52 am

Hi Steve i was looking just in case any of these Crystals are of use for the 4060 ? i don't care if i have to do a R/C oscillator just in case i have these handy nothing at 40khz unfortunately.
I was looking for any even number Crystals i have 20mhz 20khz 24khz 16khz 12khz i do have a odd 31.25khz closet to 40khz i have
All the rest i have are old colour tv crystals 4.3 mhz and odd number types .
i will Strip my board today and get ready to start again .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Steve Anderson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:11 pm

There's nothing wrong with using a RC oscillator here, it is for NBTV which although it would be nice to crystal-lock frequencies, it's not essential. Remember the origins of this are mechanical, aside from Swiss-made watches not many mechanical things have that degree of accuracy - at least those which we mere mortals can afford.

Give me a couple of hours, I'll sketch something up.

Steve A.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:23 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:There's nothing wrong with using a RC oscillator here, it is for NBTV which although it would be nice to crystal-lock frequencies, it's not essential. Remember the origins of this are mechanical, aside from Swiss-made watches not many mechanical things have that degree of accuracy - at least those which we mere mortals can afford.

Give me a couple of hours, I'll sketch something up.

Steve A.


No worries Steve i wasn't sure which way you were thinking here on the clock side of it Yes R/C is fine i was doing that with the chip yesterday i think it does need a fine tune trimmer for any thing just to get to the correct 1 or 2 hz as a R/C oscillator but its pretty good ic .
Thank you Steve i have cleared my board for a new start .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Steve Anderson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:15 pm

I don't know about you guys, but I find the internals of the 4060 a bit confusing with its odd missing outputs. So to help me (and perhaps you) I drew up this sketch to end the confusion once and for all. I haven't shown the full MR path as that should be clear.

I must set the default font to a better one!

Steve A.

Sketch replaced with one with better font.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:46 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:I don't about you guys, but I find the internals of the 4060 a bit confusing with its odd missing outputs. So to help me (and perhaps you) I drew up this sketch to end the confusion once and for all. I haven't shown the full MR path as that should be clear.

I must set the default font to a better one!

Steve A.


I think this is a Klass circuit Steve what the R/C oscillator part is what i always used for projects the crystal version is a few post back.
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The PMT in control of the Devil

Postby Steve Anderson » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:55 pm

Looking at this further it should be possible to get the frequencies required from one 4060.

Three frame frequencies of 12.5, 25 and 50Hz, plus line frequencies of 200, 400, 800, 1,600 and 3,200Hz. Also 6,400 and 12,800Hz should you need them. Choosing the appropriate line and frame rates gives you quite a wide range of lines-per-frame all based on powers of two.

Harry, would this be enough for what you require?

Klaas's Triple Waveform Generator used CD/HEF parts, what do you plan to use as the timing components may be different?

Steve A.
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