Lens Disk idea

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Postby Steve Anderson » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:11 pm

gary wrote:...It's doing me head in son.


You know, it's pretty much settled, whatever the reasons may be, ink-jet no, toner yes.

As for "Doin' me 'ead in (guv)"...a much beloved expression here...don't forget the world is going to end in nine days.

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Postby AncientBrit » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:12 am

9 days?

Then no worries about IR detectors,

Cheers,

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Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:26 am

I forgot we only have till the 20th i have been trying work out my jobs because xmas holidays are mid week..what waste of time !
But what isn't is of cause the encoder issue !
Using another sensor type as steve was saying is another way ,the IR works just a little tricky when we didn't know about the ink jet thing.
I think using a visible light sensor we would have the problem of the umatic vcrs Steve was talking about ..infact i found the afternoon sun which came in to the house and when i was working on the encoder was effecting the encoders sensor normal room light is ok but it doesn't like a lot of sun either.
And talking about light i need to turn off my leds on my circuit boards in the case i forgot about them .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:34 am

Well i have it all running now again pretty poor results so far best i could get so far was seeing my led from my led torch directed at the lens .

I can see the movement and size moving in and out ..i also have the encoder missing pulse in the wrong position which i can see also.

Oh well little steps can only get better ...

:roll:
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:51 pm

A bit off track here but i was playing around if i have my optics right or wrong but i can see it could be used in a led monitor idea ...
Its better to the eyes my lines are a little off but its a way of seeing that camera raster with out the camera part working.
Might of got a picture if i stuck a modulating luxeon behind.
Attachments
Picture 581.avi
I have been testing the led lens so this is an led when its not an led !
(15.55 MiB) Downloaded 120 times
Picture 581.jpg
Picture 581.jpg (80.45 KiB) Viewed 2555 times
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby Klaas Robers » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:52 am

Many years ago, around 1970 we tried to make an optical reader for punched paper tape. The light source was a small tube lamp, the sensors were 8 silicon photo diodes. For the diodes a "mask" was made, for the lamp as well.

The masks were made of black plexiglass with holes drilled in it, where small rods of transparent plexiglass were pushed in. It looked marvellous, good craftsmanship of the mechanical wizzards.

But it worked not at all. Very unreliable.

Then after a few days of puzzeling we tried what a "sheet" of undrilled black plexiglass did. There was almost no difference with this black plexiglass and no plexiglass at all. With other words the black plexiglass was completely clear to the IR light that the incandescent lamp on a low voltage emitted and where the silicon diodes were sensitive for.

From that moment on I suspect all materials for IR light. There is no relation to its colour and the IR transparency or reflectivity. Later this was confirmed when I could use an IR-viewer, a kind of light amplifier tube only sensitive to infra read. We used them in the devellopment of CD drives. In this way we could see the rays of the IR lasers. When watching the real world by this device it was almost unrecognisable. Peoples hairs, beards cheeks, everything pale white (eh.. green).

Then I understood the problems J.L.Baird had with his IR sensitive photocells and why his actors had to be prepared with very heavy make up. In the IR-world we look like ghosts. You would think: Infra Red is so close to red, there will be hardly any difference. Not at all.

Happily the MUTR televisor uses an encoder made on a laser printer.
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Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Thanks Klaas for that story on a early build lot easier these days to check the IR light with digital cameras you had it harder back then suppose you had to make Ir light tester your self by the sounds of it .

I have a Question for any one with a ink jet printer has any one got an encoder to work with a print out from one of these ? I know my HP is a no goer just wondering if other brands models might use different ink that isn't transparent to IR light ...if so this is useful information.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby gary » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:04 pm

harry dalek wrote:I have a Question for any one with a ink jet printer has any one got an encoder to work with a print out from one of these ? I know my HP is a no goer just wondering if other brands models might use different ink that isn't transparent to IR light ...if so this is useful information.


Yes Harry - I have.

After the frustration of your dilemma and the fact that it just didn't make sense to me I was keen to try it myself. I have a friend in Sydney and I was going to use hers as a test machine as I am going up tomorrow for an ex-works XMas dinner.

Then inspiration struck me - I remembered someone had given me a printer to "fix" about a year ago (with my new house "love" jobs have dropped down the priority list somewhat).

I dug it out and discovered it was a HP PSC 1210 all-in-one. I powered it up and noticed the "check cartridge" light was blinking.

I ran a test page and - you guessed it - the black ink cartridge was empty/faulty.

A quick check on the internet and I found that a replacement from anywhere close would cost me over $30 - blow that. I stumbled over a head cleaning process involving soaking the nozzle in warm water for a minute.

I dried it off and put it back in and the light was still blinking. I did another test page and hey presto! the black ink was working. I quickly did a copy of an encoder I had printed out elsewhere (I could print directly because of the "check cartridge" fault) - the quality was rubbish but I though good enough for a test. BTW Harry, the black ink cartridge is a HP 56. The results are shown below.

Now, an HP technician has informed me that even when the black cartridge is being used that the colour cartridges are used also to produce a better black - this could explain the IR reflectivity - now this may be the case for Harry's printer as it is meant to be "photo quality" - but it is definitely not the case for my printer because a) it will work WITHOUT the colour cartridge in (a tri-colour version) and b) there is a copy black AND a copy colour button on the unit - not conclusive but suggestive. I have asked the HP technician for more information because he has obviously made a generalisation that is patently untrue. In addition I would have thought that the colour inks would only be used to produce grey not pure black - we'll see.

I attach also, a paper that, if any one is still following this issue, may explain to them, in a round-about way, what I have been trying to but in a better way.

So Steve, there may be hope for us on the 21st yet.

EDIT: BTW Harry does your printer have both a black and colour button? If so it may well be worth producing an encoder a "black" copy.
Attachments
inkjet encoder compressed.AVI
(5.5 MiB) Downloaded 121 times
hp psc 1210 all-in-one (800x600).jpg
hp psc 1210 all-in-one (800x600).jpg (61.92 KiB) Viewed 2519 times
terrible quality encoder.jpg
terrible quality encoder.jpg (70.9 KiB) Viewed 2519 times
mbdocscfvaismohp_07.pdf
(297.83 KiB) Downloaded 139 times
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Postby Harry Dalek » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:02 pm

Hi Gary

You have been busy !

I am pleased that another in jet experiment has been tried ,i wanted to have a look at both down load files but they both don't seem to work ,i was trying VLC and windows media to do the AVI and foxit for the pdf ..
Both don't seem to like the files .

Yes on the black print only button i had a look it does have it ,worth a try and see !

Let you know how the print gos.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby Steve Anderson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:46 pm

Both files OK here, using the default Movie Player in Ubuntu Linux and ditto the PDF viewer....Windoze....you don't get what you pay for...

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Postby gary » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:15 pm

Yes Harry the video is the same format I use for all my videos and the PDF I sent you by PM and I think you opened it ok - so I suggest something happened to your download that corrupted the files.
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Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:09 pm

gary wrote:Yes Harry the video is the same format I use for all my videos and the PDF I sent you by PM and I think you opened it ok - so I suggest something happened to your download that corrupted the files.


Hi Gary

I go them to work and work with the programs i tried yesterday it was a bad download and so worked fine this time.

Arr you got it to work with your printer ! i just finished work today so i will have time tomorrow to test again.

Well this is one the mythbusters didn't need to bust that the laser printer is the only way for a encorder print out yours shows this is not the case and using a Hp printer makes me more hopeful the external black button is the key....
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby gary » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Personally, Harry, I don't think yours will work. I am convinced now that modern printers deliberately spray "coloured ink" when printing black in order to "waste" as much ink as possible. After all the money in printers is in the ink ($2000 a year if in general use), as opposed to relatively cheap prices for the hardware. There is no "technical" reason for "colour spraying" that I can ascertain. (beyond keeping the nozzles clean, and that's not enough).

I am certain there is not a single person on earth who has questioned why, in a technical sense, colour cartridges are used in the production of pure black - until now. Ok, call me sceptical - I would be more than happy to be proved wrong. Go for it.

Edit: that last paragraph was a general comment - not aimed at you Harry, of course.
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Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:09 pm

Hi Gary
I just tested my print out and as you were thinking its a no goer again :(

I was hopeful with the black and white setting button but doing the IR light test on the print out i can see its the same as the others .

Oh well but it is still interesting the older ink jet printers work .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Postby gary » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:21 pm

What would be interesting, down the track, when your black ink cartridge needs replacing, is to cut it open and test the remaining ink for IR reflectivity - I would be interested to know if the ink is a dark grey ink that the colour inks make blacker or if it is a true black that the colour inks make lighter - or whether, indeed, for some unfathomable reason they have developed a black pigment ink that reflects IR.
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