Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

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Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:06 am

Been looking for a while for a small Colour CRT to experiment with for my first venture into Colour television and came across part of a vintage fish finder JFV-61 which happened to have a a Colour tube,the small ones are pretty rare now unlike the odd B/w type you can still get now and again but Colour not so easy to find these days.
It is a Sony tube have no data again for this CRT so will have see if i can to work it out and if i am lucky so a frame sequential tv it will become .
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Just happens to be mounted vertical which is just right to display Gary's vertical line scan 32 line frame sequential system on video2nbtv v3....be nice flashy at 12.5 hz :wink:
Here below is unwanted beast in all its grubby glory and its cleaner insides which will be gutted soon .
i will keep the case clean it up .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby smeezekitty » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:17 am

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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm

smeezekitty wrote:http://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Strip-Side-project-650-finalenglish.jpg

diy-do_it_yourself-hobbyists-electronics_hobby-parts-engineers-rcln196_low.jpg
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I am getting better at that i have had many failed projects when i started on the forum but slowly picked up knowledge from my friends here on the forum .
I finished a electrostatic monitor a multi system PMT flying spot camera multi system magnetic deflection monitor and a Vidicon camera to working proof of concept or more ,last one i am stuck with a wrong deflection yoke so as far as i can go with that at the moment all 4 projects took me 1 year .
To go on more with any project could be endless but comes down to interest and interest of others no replies how long can you talk to your self ?,you may notice most posts just stop on the forum on subjects so pretty much same go's for that project .
i have swapped to all electronic projects for a while to learn how to do it all this and tick off my to do list /

Now onto this one !
Gutted the the old fish finder well its a start ...and i have to get the CRT out to work out what go's where on its insides ,last time i did a search could not find any data on this there's very little on magnetic deflected CRT newer types .this ones may be 80's 90s guessing .
I don't really want to take the yoke and magnetic rings off the tube but looks like i will have to due to the lack of data .
I think i know enough to work it all out i have a good idea how it will all work circuit wise ,got the the parts the other day .
This fish finder i have had for some time and again have been thinking about how to use the colour tube and my limitations and Frame Sequential it will be .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Studying the Trinitron

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:32 pm

I am heading out in uncharted waters and i could sink , i am looking into the difference's on B/w and the Sony's invention colour Trinitron tube..
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The main difference is the internal Resistors some sort of feed back happening to the EHT transformer focusing help ..

More speculation in the video below on the trinitron electron gun and these resistors .
So as far as focusing go's i will sure find out soon ,i will hook the tubes deflection coils up to a small AC voltage and fire it up ...any case i don't need it to be to fine as its 32 line i want it on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90eBdNq-ZM8
Below my first look at the tubes pin connections
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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EHT and measurements

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:49 pm

One problem i have over the last SSTV P7 and B/W NBTV magnetic deflected tube is EHT i have run out of Chinese bug zapper modules and this colour tube will need something a touch higher.
I did manage to have a look at the spark distance of the colour tubes EHT but it died before i could get my High voltage probe and better meter onit to take a correct reading .
Looked to be in the teens for a 1mm per 1000 volt spark .
Since then i have knocked up a replacement which i was going to do any case ,didn't use this crt's flyback transformer but used another i scrapped from another colour portable tv from a few years back ...its CRT is long gone which i regret all getting harder to find these days .
Below the ZVS flyback driver ,pretty much fool proof this fool as made 3 and they always work first go .
Mazzilli ZVS Flyback Driver.jpg

Now on to testing the voltage .
I had to check my meter and probe testing my PMT power supply on one of its settings just to make sure i remembered how this works ....i picked the PMT power supplies negative 1280 volts raw to the meter first up,then via the Probe and meter which shows 12.8 on the Low probe setting and 6.4 on the high (have to double the number on high setting).
Ok that went fine on to the ZVS flyback ...
Raw reading direct to my good high voltage meter its low voltage is a touch over 1.200 volts and high 12.050 volts via the probe working it out ....well so far , i have double the winding's on the primary coils i need to cut back and see if i can tweak it a touch higher

Below low EHT reading as the flyback driver starts to work. Notice reading is direct to meter .

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The highest reading it can do at the moment via a probe reading is 12.050 volts just add a zero via a probe reading

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low spark test ...not really good to do this all it doe's is heat your parts up to fail as i found out the hard way on this monitors original EHT circuit...i recall the 555 flyback circuits will kill them very quickly .
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Placement ...a pain if you make something and it doesn't fit a lesson learnt ! :roll:
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Firing up the Trinitron

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:33 pm

I did the same experiment i first did on the Thylacine CRT but first having a good look at the CRT with no data just studying the cathode ray tube and jotting down what you think is what .
First up hooked the heater up to 5 volts dc (should be 6.3v) EHT plugged in and cathode to ground or in this case 3 one at a time and 6v AC on one of the deflection yoke coils.
First time i have ever got one of these to light up ,i tried the other deflection coil for the rest of the experiment .
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Next i tried the 3 guns on their own and not what i was expecting !
I was expecting just one colour per gun ...i think due to not having any focus voltage on the anode yet the beam is defocusing crossing the other guns path's
speculating of cause.... :?:
I think the next step would be working more on the CRT supply and see if i can get lines of just red blue and green in a better focus .
But least i know at the moment the EHT is good enough to test with .

Blue gun i think
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Green Gun
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Red Gun
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Taming the beast
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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The Trinitron and thinking about the circuits

Postby Harry Dalek » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:40 pm

This gives me more of an idea what going on in the Triniton , the manual is a good find very helpful.
Sony CTV25 BA-4 Training Manual.PDF
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I have not explained what i am up to circuit wise if i manage to get the CRT to behave ...Pretty much every thing i will use i have used before so i know the circuits will work /
Again i will be using Steve Andersons DAC circuit pretty much my favourite circuit these days ...any way using a 3.2768MHZ and a 6 MHZ crystal clock selectable.
Sync pulse from video will be used to reset the Master clock resets on the 4040's where there is a pulse to use !
For the colour video signal using Garys video2NBTV -v3 where there are three 3 frame sequential systems to try and i will decode the video .
The 3.2 MHZ is for the colour 32 line frame sequential 102.4khz divided by 3.2khz 32 line these frequencies into the 4040 counts and out .
The 6 Mhz crystal clock via a 3 divide by 10 and divide 2 counter to get the 3 khz 120 line colour frame sequential system line frequency and then a divide by 8 to get 375hz line frequency for the 30 line Baird frame sequential ...any way its do able with parts handy .
I will use the frame pulse to control a 4017 set up to count to 3 and reset to switch the 3 colour frame video signals via 3 4066 switch's /
if all that's makes sense ...i think even with no sync pulses via the 120 line system with just the crystal clock if adjusted close should at least be viewable even with a slow drift ,in B/w it was on the Devil A for Andrew monitor even with a R/C oscillator .
May be if i am lucky i will get some thing like this on the monitor
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Ac Power supply

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:15 pm

Bit of head scratching last few days mainly thinking about the power supply and how to feed it to the monitor ,due to lack of space and putting a mains transformer to close to a crt is not a good idea as well , so have gone for a separate case monitor feeding the monitor its AC supply via its 9 multicore Cable in a similar way to the Anderson 3bp1,the Deep image P9 SSTV and the The Devil A for Andrew monitors ,but difference is its using i am making its own supply touch smaller than the heavy bench supply i made for the past monitors,
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The Dc supply for the circuit will be on the top PCB.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:46 pm

I had to redo this posting as there was a typeo on the circuit pin position on the 4040 now all correct in this circuit .
Works well but i can't use it passed the 12mhz clock for this project for what i want to do ...just using it for testing sync drift adjustments at the moment but may be useful to others as in perhaps the line half timing of a scope tv or such ,240 120 60 down to 30 lines really .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:13 pm

I have been working on constructing the line and frame rate circuits using the DAC i need 2 clocks the 32 i have used a few times before this is the 4th and 30 line i worked out a while back using the existing 12 mhz clock and 3 divide by 5 7490s get 96000 divide by 256 shows 375hz so 30 line .
So this is taken care of next the 120 line problem and if its possible .
To get 120 line via 3khz and 25hz i need a 96MHZ crystal i think they only make those as over tone crystals ...so it may be not as accurate but may be an idea to use either LTC1799 or 4046 oscilator and just switch in the 768 khz needed feed it to the DAC that divide by 256 gives 3khz with a frame rate of 25 hz 120 line.
So that's an easier solution to get 120 line Frame Sequential colour .
The format here is horizontal if i do it will have to display vertical /
Below is the circuit i am working on just have to add the power transistors for the deflection yoke .
The 3 divide by 5 7490's are on the little circuit board to the right it will sit on top of the board
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Testing here the ADC sawtooth circuits all working ok ..but i think it may be a better idea to have the deflection circuit on its own power supply transformer something i will keep in mind once i see how they work all together .
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Line rate
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Frame rate
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Testing also th 30 line results i adjusted the clock for lock on the software NBTV viewers its pretty steady might even work with no syncing ? it pretty much worked on the last monitor .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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REBOOT

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:12 am

I found out on that the frame rate and line rates are not what i was thinking they were which means i had to rethink reconstruct the timing circuits after a day or 2 punching numbers i found a vintage crystal that would do the trick on all 3 line rates.
This is pretty much the work to date ,constructed the circuit
A and B on the frame input switch should be reversed and in the bottom frame circuit .
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The frame rate on the 10 hz side i was trying the 32 MHZ crystal module but think punching some more numbers i can get away with using some thing lower so less division iC's needed...

I notice a mistake in the 4040 ouput should be pin 14 divide by 256 out gives 3,2 khz ...
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I sort of want to have some deflection on the CRT before any more testing i don't want to damage it once i get back to that side of it .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:43 pm

At the moment i am finishing off the electronic frequency switching , via the 4017 count to 3 and for the line and count to 2 for the frame and the 4066 switches.
I was going with some manual switches but changed my mind on that they would leave little room on the panel for any thing else since ... and did work well on the cyclops camera as an idea and this is a touch more simple , just have to wire both boards up
Bottom 2 green leds are the frame indicators and 3 above the line the red on the 555 astable for switching speed when frequency select push button is used .
Attachments
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Testing the 12.5hz switching

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:27 am

Turning to the frame side of the project i have worked out punching some more numbers with a few more 7490s the 1.84320 MHZ crystal i am using now for the 3 line frequencies can also be used for the frame frequencies to the DAC and also the frequencies times 3 for the video switching both really needed due to the division on the counters .
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Testing a 3 colour led first on low frequency then on the 32 line frame frequency nice flicker :wink:


I will wire up the 10 hz side of it in the next day ....so looks like all i needed was the 4060 1.84320 MHZ crystal oscillator for all this and division via the 7490s .i'll post up the numbers tomorrow .
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:02 pm

Built the 10 hz division circuit side of the project frame switching ,having problems with the divide by 6 with the 7490 i had the same problem with the divide by 3 but i had forgot the divide by 6 worked in the line division 7490...so not sure whats up this time .
FSC.jpg


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I haven't tried or needed to try divide by 7 or 9 but all the rest work as in the schematic list above , the divide by 3 i had to change to the version below that worked ......the one in the list just got error reading .

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So every thing works so far apart from the divide by 6 circuit ,i used 7490's as i had a lot in my junk box thinking of swapping the divide by 6 job to 2 4017's i will double check the wiring here any case ...may be some more decoupling capacitors might do the trick .


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EDIT
Replacing the divide by 6 7490 ics with 2 4017 circuit change for them worked well all now works... :)
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Frame Sequential Cathode Ray Tube Project

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:45 pm

I ended up swapping the divide by 6 7490 ic problem i was having with 2 4017's and it worked a treat got them to count to 6 problem fixed .
Hope that's it now i had to learn from my mistakes as you see from the evolution of the boards/

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Didn't have much time today but hooked up the 3 line frequencies to the DAC via the 4066 selection switch that worked as well have to just hook up the 2 frame frequencies to the DAC via the 4066 section switch and that's all finished the sawtooth out of the DAC will then be all push button selected /
Another problem i had was working out the Frame Sequential switching of the colour video signal to match its frame rate reason i had to have 2 frame frequencies via the same frame rate one to feed the DAC the other to feed the 4066 switching which is 3 times the frame rate for division correction via the counters...
Below is testing the line rate selection and the 3 colour led is flashing on the 10 hz nice to see mixing the 3 colours do make white light well just at 10 hz :roll: .
I can move on soon to line rate sync detection ,i would expect it all to work with no sync as i have to do it any way for the 15 line Baird rate since there's no sync at all for either H or V other 2 i have Horizontal ...i would expect with no sync just running off the crystal a bit of drifting on the Thylacine it was pretty good on 32 line but got worse as the line frequency went up .
Have still no idea how the CRT will go i have more work to say the least on this when i get back to it but least i will have deflection by then.
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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