The Beast

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Re: The Beast

Postby Steve Anderson » Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:54 pm

Harry Dalek wrote:I have not played with Satellites for a while not sure how often your waiting for them to update your device ,but i found it takes a few bit of the day up tracking them getting things ready.


Start-up from 'cold' (a cold start, the receiver has been off for more than 30 minutes) takes around 30 seconds to acquire the satellites in view that are more than 10 degrees above the horizon and with a strong enough signal. With the newer additional systems that's around 30-35 satellites providing navigational and time/frequency data. With a 'hot-start' (a shorter off-time), that comes down to 1-2 seconds.

The updates are once per second once in tracking mode from all satellites above 10 degrees and with a suitable signal-to-noise ratio, better than -33db.

However the oscillator the receiver is controlling takes up to an hour to stabilise its temperature - it's in a temperature controlled oven at around 65 celcius. Photo and datasheet below...

This oscillator isn't made by Isotemp now, it's been replaced by smaller and less power-hungry devices with generally better specifications. The oven part takes about 6W at start-up which drops to about 2W once up to temperature at my typical ambient temperatures, around 30 C. The date code may seem odd, but it's the 48th week of 2000, I bought it mid-2001. It's been on for 99%+ of those 20 years.

Steve A.
Isotemp 1.jpg
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Re: The Beast

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:53 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:
Start-up from 'cold' (a cold start, the receiver has been off for more than 30 minutes) takes around 30 seconds to acquire the satellites in view that are more than 10 degrees above the horizon and with a strong enough signal. With the newer additional systems that's around 30-35 satellites providing navigational and time/frequency data. With a 'hot-start' (a shorter off-time), that comes down to 1-2 seconds.

The updates are once per second once in tracking mode from all satellites above 10 degrees and with a suitable signal-to-noise ratio, better than -33db.

However the oscillator the receiver is controlling takes up to an hour to stabilise its temperature - it's in a temperature controlled oven at around 65 celcius. Photo and datasheet below...

This oscillator isn't made by Isotemp now, it's been replaced by smaller and less power-hungry devices with generally better specifications. The oven part takes about 6W at start-up which drops to about 2W once up to temperature at my typical ambient temperatures, around 30 C. The date code may seem odd, but it's the 48th week of 2000, I bought it mid-2001. It's been on for 99%+ of those 20 years.

Steve A.


Whats your antenna Steve i used a Helix Antenna i could see the edge of Antarctica a only a few degrees and around your area at the other end ,i suppose this is used for ships or more so planes these days .
Keeping the crystal at a stable temp does show not easy to keep timing accurate some thing to take note with Crystals if you really need that correct timing .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Beast

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:20 pm

Harry Dalek wrote:Whats your antenna Steve?

Follows is a photo...it's that small as GPS and the like are all around the same frequency of 1575.42MHz. In this case it has a ground-plane of 64x64mm providing around 7.5db increase in signal level, the whole board is 91x64mm. I didn't bother with the small amount of on-board electronics except for the 3.3V regulator required for the receiver proper which is on the other side of the board. It used to be available as a kit, but now updated to a pre-built version, but even that is stalled due to the semiconductor shortage.

I put the whole thing into a waterproof plastic box and mounted it at gutter level on the house with quite a good clear view of the sky. This is just the receiver, the oscillator and so on are inside sheltered from the elements. I used a single 4-pair CAT5 cable from it to inside, though any cable will do, nothing fast, the data is only at 9600 baud. One pair for power (8-15V, 30mA), one pair for the 1pps (One-Pulse-per-Second) signal, one pair for the NMEA data from the receiver and one for configuration instructions to the receiver. Though the default settings are fine for most applications, so the last pair are optional. I also didn't fit the LEDs, saves power and you can't see them anyway in my case...

The 1pps signal is the one used for timing and controlling the inside 10MHz temperature controlled oscillator. The falling edge of the 1pps signal is within +/-10ns of UTC.

Steve A.

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Re: The Beast

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:55 pm

Also, this Nixie clock in my living room is locked to the GPS signal - I have no excuse now for being late...

It's 'naked', without its case...photo taken during its build and testing...some years ago...the tubes are Telefunken ZM1080s...also made by others, e.g. Mullard...still quite easy to get, though not necessarily cheap..

To extend the expected tube life I added two sensors to the clock, first a light detector so when the room is dark the tubes are off - accounts for maybe 8 hours a day in this household. Secondly a PIR movement detector, as used in burglar alarms, if no movement detected in 5 minutes the tubes are switched off. If you keep still while watching TV, a wave of your hand is enough to wake it up. If you have pets that might be thwarted - we don't, fish may be OK though.

I can imagine a domestic cat thinking, "Why every time I move that 'thing' looks at me?" but cats are prone to paranoia...and a lack of a sense of humour...and a phobia regarding bananas...do a google...

Steve A.

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Re: The Beast

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:58 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:Also, this Nixie clock in my living room is locked to the GPS signal - I have no excuse now for being late...

it's 'naked', without its case...photo taken during its build and testing...some years ago...the tubes are Telefunken ZM1080s...also made by others, e.g. Mullard...still quite easy to get, though not necessarily cheap..

To extend the expected tube life I added two sensors to the clock, first a light detector so when the room is dark the tubes are off - accounts for maybe 8 hours a day in this household. Secondly a PIR movement detector, as used in burglar alarms, if no movement detected in 5 minutes the tubes are switched off. If you keep still while watching TV, a wave of your hand is enough to wake it up.

Steve A.


OK Steve i see its one small unit i was thinking it was a antenna coax to perhaps a usb radio dongle ,every thing is so small these days i am happy to see the Nixie neon number tubes at the other end :wink: i have perhaps 3 or 4 from some mixed part boxes electronic place sold down here in the 80s .
I used the Neon Nixie idea on to try my first Nipkow experiments in the 80s only thing i had to try and copy a Baird monitor i saw in a book i had ,not the best idea to light up all the tube but better than nothing ,don't think we had bright enough Leds back then or it even came to me to use a matrix of them with a light diffuser.

Was a bit busy today to work on The Beast today but been thinking about the next steps to do ,i have to be able to adjust the syncing between 32 line at least and higher line rates so need to mount and adjustment control for this and get on to at least matching the Devil monitor ,then i will like to lower the frame rate and increase the line rates within bandwidth limits ,its interesting to me the CRT phosphor helps to see and image at lower frame rates this CRT is better for this than the VCR139 i used in The Devil A for Andrew ,Not SSTV and not NBTV we will see ever way what works this time .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Beast

Postby Klaas Robers » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:02 pm

Wow Steve, you as well made a Nixie clock. In 2006 I made one that runs on the German long wave transmitter DCF77 which transmits on 77.5 kHz. I include a photo:
Klok Klaas.jpg
I still had some of the large Philips vertical nixies ZM1040. In front of the clock you see the small LW receiver that receives the one second impulses, 0.1 sec long is a "zero", 0.2 sec long is a "one". During one minute it gives the time, the day and the date. The pulse of the 59th second is suppressed, so the next pulse indicates the start of the new minute. I have to orient the small ferrite antenna to the transmitter in Frankfurt (D). For a more precise time I have to subtract the propagation time of radio waves from Frankfurt to our home.....

This clock in the state that you see it here, runs already 15 years in my living room; it became our standard for the real time. As radio and TV here is all digital, their time is no more real time at the moment that we hear / see it. This clock tells us exactly when it is time for "Happy New Year".
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Re: The Beast

Postby Steve Anderson » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:34 pm

The nearest LW time transmitter to us is JJY in Japan on 40 & 60kHz, but I doubt the signals here are strong enough without a substantial outdoor antenna. There is also at least one in India, I think Australia has one or more too, all too distant though. And with GPS and the like their lifespan is now probably limited, though they'll probably run for another decade or two. Possibly still useful in radio propagation measurements and prediction.

The BBC's Radio 4 carrier frequency of 198kHz (was 200kHz many years ago) is also locked to some standard, but there's no time/date data encoded that I know of.

Steve A.

"In October 2011, the BBC admitted that the Droitwich transmitter, including Radio 4's longwave service and Radio Teleswitch, will cease to operate when one of the last two valves breaks, and no effort would be made to manufacture more nor to install a replacement longwave transmitter.

The BBC stated that their plan is simply to cease broadcasting on longwave forever once the Droitwich transmitter fails. It has been reported that the BBC estimated that less than ten spare compatible valves existed in the world, and that each valve had a working life of between one and ten years. However, ex-BBC engineers say the valves are ceramic, not glass and these valves can be made to order, perfectly safely."


A dilemma it seems...my father would have be horrified if this happened, where would the cricket commentary go? Called the "Test match Special" it seems...

Longwave (LW) from around 153khz to 280kHz, mostly used for broadcasting only in Europe.

Also...

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/ ... ve-goodbye
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Re: The Beast

Postby Klaas Robers » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:17 pm

Indeed Steve, the BBC 4 carrier on 198 kHz is also very stable. As far as I know they use an atomic clock as oscillator and I know that people are using it as a way to control a 10 MHz oscillator. But it is AM modulated with speech and music, so it has no time indication. You can listen to it when you go to: http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/ which is the web-SDR of the university of Twente in the east of NL. You can tune in from 10 kHz to 30 MHz, so you can listen at 198 kHz and 77.5 kHz as well.

I hope the DCF77 is continued, because there are millions of clocks sold here that use that signal to synchronise their time. Then it is difficult to simply switch it off.

Frankfurt is about 300 km from here, so I think my clock is running 1 ms late.
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Re: The Beast

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:42 pm

Looked into multi line rate syncing today ,in Steves circuit below i found R622 which i have replaced with a low fixed resistor and a 100k pot for now just needs slight adjustment to keep video in sync with a wide range ...again so long as the frame rate 12.5hz Tested to day just from 25 line to 64 line in the videos below ..but could do much higher if the bandwidth was there .
Steves 4538's.png
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25 line


64 line
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DSCN6239.JPG
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Beast

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:47 pm

More work on Syncing R622 added a fine tune10K pot so adjusting the 100k pot you get 30 line to 69 line in sync so far ,another idea would be switch in some fixed resistors
This is about the best centring a larger raster with a longer more square aspect ratio due to the 2 gun design of the CRT .
Attachments
DSCN6240.JPG
DSCN6262.JPG
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Beast

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Trying to improve the syncing range on the monitor i just had to listen to my self on the experiment on the Devil monitor a while back ,500k pot over R622 and now this case i had a 1meg pot results were a success .
So far tested down to 16 line in sync .
With a pot adjustment of 108k sync range is at least 16 line to 30 line.
56k range is 31 line to 91 line
19k range 92 line to 168line
14k 169 line to 236line
11k 237 line to 240 line

I am not sure yet if i will go with the pot idea in the drawing below or just switch in those resistance values which seems a neater idea
I must have R622 a higher value than 82k its 167k
DSCN6215.JPG



images below 16 line same image 30 line
Nipkows system disc was 18 line i think image would be viewable if shown a lot smaller .
With the frame rate of 12.5 all those were in sync but of cause video loss at higher line rates due to using my laptop sound card makes any thing over 70 line look worse ,to over come that lowing the frame rate would help
Any case the monitor can do a very nice range of syncing as is ,i might play with the frame rates next ,using FreeNBTV software makes this a very good tool using on and going off nbtv standard.
Scope shows correct syncing 6C and 6E test points on Steves 4528 sync circuit last shown at 240 line Yellow line rate Blue Framing .
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DSCN9997.JPG
DSCN9998.JPG
DSCN9999.JPG
DSCN6210.JPG
Last edited by Harry Dalek on Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Beast

Postby smeezekitty » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:18 pm

With the frame rate of 12.5 all those were in sync but of cause video loss at higher line rates due to using my laptop sound card makes any thing over 70 line look worse ,to over come that lowing the frame rate would help

I think one interesting endeavour would be for someone to make a USB DAC that could do a decently high bandwidth (500Khz?) and play back .wav files. It could be DC coupled as well. It would be really good for experimenting with high line/frame-rate fringe NBTV. I could modify my program to generate even higher sample rates if needed.

Any case the monitor can do a very nice range of syncing as is ,i might play with the frame rates next ,using FreeNBTV software makes this a very good tool using on and going off nbtv standard.

:D
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Re: The Beast

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:45 pm

smeezekitty wrote:
With the frame rate of 12.5 all those were in sync but of cause video loss at higher line rates due to using my laptop sound card makes any thing over 70 line look worse ,to over come that lowing the frame rate would help

I think one interesting endeavour would be for someone to make a USB DAC that could do a decently high bandwidth (500Khz?) and play back .wav files. It could be DC coupled as well. It would be really good for experimenting with high line/frame-rate fringe NBTV. I could modify my program to generate even higher sample rates if needed.

Any case the monitor can do a very nice range of syncing as is ,i might play with the frame rates next ,using FreeNBTV software makes this a very good tool using on and going off nbtv standard.

:D


BTW What's your first name ? i can never use it replying as i don't know :wink: ...always a big thanks for freeNBTV a great bit of software helps me a lot .
Yes for sure its just a pity we don't have some thing like this ,as i recall Gary was able to do something similar out of the parallel port

youtu.be/tW822Yv6b4s
There's also another way using the a pc's VGA port
http://www.taswegian.com/NBTV/forum/vie ... &hilit=VGA
The USB DAC is bit beyond me but i am glad you would know what to do if it comes about software wise all we can do is hope some one can take pity on us :cry: ,i might ask Richard labguy what he thinks he's good at this stuff ...it would be very useful tool for sure ,i have been wanting something like this for some time .
I can use your software for higher line rates but drop the frame rate and see if i can get my monitor to sync which i was last time around but love have some thing you have mentioned for sure .
What about some thing like this ? https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/udsd/?v=6cc98ba2045f
or https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002 ... 5354a24e-0
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: The Beast

Postby smeezekitty » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:32 pm

BTW What's your first name ? i can never use it replying as i don't know :wink: ...always a big thanks for freeNBTV a great bit of software helps me a lot .

You can call me John. I am younger than most of the forum users I think and most younger internet users tend to use real names less to an extent. Yeah it helped me too... there was a notable lack of available software for that purpose with fully customizable line and frame rates. Still want to make a viewer some day but motivation and time are fleeting right now.

Yes for sure its just a pity we don't have some thing like this ,as i recall Gary was able to do something similar out of the parallel port

youtu.be/tW822Yv6b4s
There's also another way using the a pc's VGA port
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2548&hilit=VGA

Both of those ports dying though. USB is the only standard I see sticking around for a while.

The USB DAC is bit beyond me but i am glad you would know what to do if it comes about software wise all we can do is hope some one can take pity on us :cry: ,i might ask Richard labguy what he thinks he's good at this stuff ...it would be very useful tool for sure ,i have been wanting something like this for some time .

Maybe I'll take it on myself one day.
I can use your software for higher line rates but drop the frame rate and see if i can get my monitor to sync which i was last time around but love have some thing you have mentioned for sure .
What about some thing like this ? https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/udsd/?v=6cc98ba2045f
or https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002 ... 5354a24e-0

That might work. I do wonder what the practical bandwidth is. 384KHz is way above anything humans can hear. While the internal DAC may very well do it, I wonder how well the analog side of the circuit actually handles those frequencies in practice. Only way to find out would be for someone to be brave enough to risk buying one and scoping it.
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Re: The Beast

Postby Steve Anderson » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:46 pm

Yes, USB. It's wonderful, except when you're trying to use it for a minority application as per here. There are 'break-out cables' available from the likes of FTDI, which I have used to turn a USB port into a 5 or 3.3V UART. They work well but only go up to 3Mbits/s, 300kbytes/sec. In a lot of cases that's plenty enough. The speed limitation is set by the chips used, FT231 and FT232...made by FTDI themselves. I don't think they've released a faster version, but I haven't checked recently.

Alternatively there's micro controllers with a built-in USB engine, e.g. PIC18F14K50 (20-pin DIL or SMD) which are quite capable of handling Full-Speed USB (12Mbits/s) or 1.2Mbytes/sec. You can obviously program them to produce whatever I/O you wish. 1.2Mbytes/s should be quite capable of handling a 500kHz bandwidth 8-bit D-A or A-D.

However, if you're even just glanced at the programming of a USB port, you hope that someone, somewhere has done it already. Undoubtedly they have, but they seem to keep the code to themselves - in a way I don't blame them, a lot of effort must have gone into it. I felt myself literally wilt as I started wading through the USB spec. It's not for the faint-hearted! As you may have gathered - I gave up!

But if you're a masochist, start here:-

https://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.shtml

Steve A.
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