Modeline 405 line Monitor

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Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat May 14, 2022 4:55 pm

The idea behind say of a a 240 line or 405 line monitor is not so much the problems of making one but having some thing to display to it to make it work in the first place .
Once again modeline and a windows PC can ease the way into helping make one .
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2548

In the above information you can see with the right video card you can output the video and separate line and frame sync for a home made 405 line monitor instead of using a mixed video with sync to a RF modulator to a old 405 line set which pretty much do not exist in my neck of the woods my idea is first make a monitor that uses the line and framing sync right from the pc video card ,make a video and sync separator later ,so much easier .

The whole idea comes down to first will my 2nd HDMi to VGA adaptor cooperate mode line says my newer Laptops Video chip is correct this is the 2 VGA ports taken care of .
Next will be with the modeline program output the correct wanted video system .

If that works it would be worth knocking together a monitor ,i can't use a old electrostatic tube do to the dot size is to large for coming system ,i have some magnetic tubes laying around so being able to do 625 line 405 will be fine for this project .
Now depends on how vintage we are going ? were the original 1936 405s television CRT tubes phosphor Green ,i have one of those handy not from the time but its phosphor is Green i will have a think about that one .
Always a way to do something not always the way you expect .
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Steve Anderson » Sat May 14, 2022 5:54 pm

If you have a laptop you can (maybe) make it a dual-screen system if it has an external (VGA/HDMI etc.) video output in addition to the in-built screen. My recently departed HP did, e.g. have Excel on one screen and Word on the other, the mouse cursor simply glides between the two screens.... I replaced it with a desktop PC with two HDMI outputs feeding two 23" monitors.

That's all fine and well. But, I very much doubt a PC can produce a 'true video' signal (405/525/625 etc.). Unless it's a specialised machine running some unique software/drivers. I could well be wrong, (I often am), otherwise why did so many people spend so much time in making standards converters for just such a use?

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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat May 14, 2022 9:00 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:If you have a laptop you can (maybe) make it a dual-screen system if it has an external (VGA/HDMI etc.) video output in addition to the in-built screen. My recently departed HP did, e.g. have Excel on one screen and Word on the other, the mouse cursor simply glides between the two screens.... I replaced it with a desktop PC with two HDMI outputs feeding two 23" monitors.

That's all fine and well. But, I very much doubt a PC can produce a 'true video' signal (405/525/625 etc.). Unless it's a specialised machine running some unique software/drivers. I could well be wrong, (I often am), otherwise why did so many people spend so much time in making standards converters for just such a use?

Steve A.


Had no problems with the dual Display that worked i haven't looked at the other computer yet but i think i have to adjust change the video chips frame rate from 60 to 50 hz this is one i am looking at is stuck on 60hz which makes the timing in modeline not possible i think for 50 25 hz systems .
I really am not sure Steve i can just see it works fine for 405 line ansd with modeline program 240 180 line also ,it has been mentioned in peter Scotts site its not perfect but can be adjusted to display
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk/Baird%20240%20lines.htm
Well thats the Question if it works why bother if not why are people using it ...i think it does come down to the video chip cooperating .
modeline editor below
http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc ... ne-en.html
The fellow below mentions every thing your thinking about price why cheaper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahzdx4KgWBg&t=2s
Attachments
Modeline 1708217.jpg
Modeline 1708217.jpg (48.64 KiB) Viewed 628 times
180 lines.jpg
180 lines.jpg (54.25 KiB) Viewed 628 times
Last edited by Harry Dalek on Sat May 14, 2022 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Steve Anderson » Sat May 14, 2022 9:14 pm

Well, it does seem that someone has spent a lot of time on this! What is not apparent at a quick glance is how it's done...

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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat May 14, 2022 10:04 pm

Steve Anderson wrote:Well, it does seem that someone has spent a lot of time on this! What is not apparent at a quick glance is how it's done...

Steve A.


Well my limited knowledge the modeline program when you type in or copy paste a (a selected modeline into its program ) your video cards outputs it to which 2nd display you have selected . you then use this simple circuit to add the sync back to the new video signal of what ever system you programed into modeline ,the guys with old 405 line tvs feed this to a RF modulator then to their old 405 line television so the original idea .
Pretty easy to work out R G B video and V H sync
VGA.jpg
VGA.jpg (25.28 KiB) Viewed 626 times


Mode line was made for i think turning an old pc monitor into a old gaming system monitor varying systems they had over the years .

Some one worked out it could be used for this interest as well .
Does come down to using the correct video card but to experiment you never know unless you try .
Might get no where with this but worth a look .
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Modeline_Database
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun May 15, 2022 9:47 am

This was grabbed off another forum as is to explain the system converting idea .....................read below

Default Generating 405 line video using a Windows PC
I’ve started a thread in the appropriate part of the forum about the restoration of this Cossor 918

This thread is about how I generate the 405 line programmes you see displayed on it.
https://youtu.be/T2oNculjoQc

Kat Manton did some work about 10 years ago with selected nVidia graphics cards under Linux, Jim Beacon was involved with testing and demonstrating the result, the project, known as FOTH tv, certainly worked, but a decade has gone by and most enthusiasts still prefer to convert from one obsolete television standard to our even more obsolete (but well loved) standard.

Now I am not criticising the system converters such as the excellent Aurora (desperately trying not to step on anyone’s toes here), what I am saying is that having the ability to output any stored still or moving image or indeed live webcam, from a PC at 405 (or indeed any other standard) is no small thing.

Anyhow, I chanced on a comment here discussing the FOTHtv project
http://forum.radios-tv.co.uk/viewtop...t=1973&start=0

near the bottom of that page Michael Watterson says,
“Allegedly there is a Windows driver!” and a link to:
http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/h...deline-en.html


Allegedly? I needed to know one way or the other!

I had lying around a Dell Optiplex 780 with Windows XP Pro and an empty PCI Express slot.
I also had, from another machine, a dual-head nVidia Quadro NVS 285 graphics adapter.
So I put the card in, and installed the latest XP driver from the nVidia website.

I am thinking, if this works, I can have my primary monitor on 1280x1024 or whatever I choose, and an “extended desktop” on the 405 line set!

So I made a VGA to composite converter by cutting a VGA cable in half and splicing in three resistors and a capacitor:
http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/vga2video.gif
If your source material is in monochrome you can omit the 100R, 150R, 390R & 20R resistors. To be honest you can’t tell much difference even with colour sources, but purists will want the correct RGB matrixing.

So, with some trepidation, I pasted Kat Manton’s 405 “modeline” into the WinModelines window.


Modeline "405i50" 8.10 664 680 752 800 377 378 385 405 -hsync -vsync interlace


and connected my crude adapter output directly to the grid of the video output valve of my newly restored Cossor 916 (I have yet to build a VHF modulator)

THE SET WAS OF COURSE POWERED VIA AN ISOLATION TRANSFORMER AND THE CHASSIS EARTHED.

I selected my secondary display in WinModelines and, with a little trepidation, clicked the little arrow...

Well, knock me over with a feather, it worked immediately, after twiddling the Horizontal and Vertical holds I had the Windows desktop wallpaper 405 line High Definition (if not HD).

But it gets even better.
If you’ve watched my Youtube presentation it is clear there is something else going on,
And it’s this, Combitech VidBlasterX Trial
http://www.vidblasterx.com/ It’s a full featured TV studio and runs on my normal monitor and outputs to the secondary 405 monitor.

It must be pointed out that VidBlasterX Trial is free-trial software, not free software. The licence terms are here
http://videoblaster.com/vidblasterhe...Licensing.html

The free trial period appears to be defined by this sentence only:
“It is therefore essential to take advantage of the Trial edition (equivalent to the Studio edition with all its features fully functional) so as to ensure that VidBlaster is suitable for your particular application before purchasing.”


OK, I may well have had a little luck on my side, especially having a spare PC, and what turned out to be a suitable graphics card, but this project was easy, bordering on the trivial, and I am left wondering why something like this is not being more widely used to serve pictures to vintage TV sets, especially museum exhibits.

Work to do.
On the computer that I am typing this I have a similar dual-head card, an nVidia Quadro NVS 290.
No doubt that will work in the XP machine, but WinModelines will not work on this Windows 10 machine, nor could I make it work with Windows 7 pro 64 bit.

I need to have a VGA monitor connected to both outputs when the PC boots, in order that both ports are enabled. This is a bit inconvenient, so I need to somehow fool card that two vga monitors are connected at bootup when there is only one real monitor. I tried by connecting the DCC data and clock pins 12><12 and 15><15 together on the 15 pin VGA interfaces. It looked like it worked as two monitors were showing in the nVidia control panel, but closer examination showed that the phantom monitor was detected as DVI not VGA. I’m probably going about this the wrong way. Any ideas?


Graham.
G3ZVT
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun May 15, 2022 10:15 am

Asking Graham a while back on the pci cards that work with mode line
I initially had success with the nVidia Quadro NVS 285 under Windows XP
to get it working under Windows 7, I had to change the card to a ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro.
The results on the 405 line picture were exactly the same in both cases.

They are dual monitor cards but most do that and what makes them different ? i think they are gaming video cards and so can be programed to odd rates ,you can really only go here with what others have used that works .

Edit well a ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro on the way 30 bucks including the postage its an older card these days but worth it if it works .
Attachments
s-l1600 (7).jpg
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun May 15, 2022 5:55 pm

more reading on Peter Scott using modeline for 240 line Baird
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/sho ... ht=FOTH+tv
Attachments
P1050517 (Medium).jpg
P1050517 (Medium).jpg (62.71 KiB) Viewed 601 times
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Mon May 16, 2022 9:35 pm

Ok so far the video card is on the way ,i just checked the desk top PC has 2 slots for this type of card ..running on windows 7 .
Using the PC for a standards converter you are not limited to 405 line
Heres another Mode line to on this page to run 441 line system
Modeline "656x383_25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 -hsync -vsync interlace
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/sho ... t=modeline
Here the french 819 line
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/sho ... p?t=167674
Peter also tried for me to see how low he could go generating video with mode line
Here for example is 120 lines with 25Hz frame rate.
Modeline "1500x100_25 3.0kHz" 8.840 1500 2828 2938 2948 100 105 110 120 -hsync -vsync
120 lines.jpg
120 lines.jpg (73.17 KiB) Viewed 581 times

Peter mentioned this on the lowest try
I think with my graphics card the Dot-Clock needs to be greater than 8.000 and the HTotal needs to be less than 3000.

So 107 lines is about the lower limit for me operating at 25 Hz frame rate, and if I halved the frame rate I think the line count would need to double.

Dot-Clock = Frame rate * HTotal * VTotal

Modeline "String description" Dot-Clock HDisp HSyncStart HSyncEnd HTotal VDisp VSyncStart VSyncEnd VTotal

Modeline "1500x100_25 2.7kHz 25.0Hz" 8.020 1500 2828 2938 2999 100 103 105 107 -hsync -vsync
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu May 19, 2022 6:34 pm

Today the dual display video card came ,i can't say it was as smooth as plugging it in and it working ,but after adjusting the windows displays and rebooting finally got it to work ..i think since i also have a on board display built into the mother board this is another factor any case the buggers got both displays up via the same card .
I think i am right in saying these video cards are a older Gaming card there are better and of cause newer cards out there but i didn't want to experiment here but use what i know others have and worked for this idea .
As you see it has a very wide range of settings no wonder it can do this my old card could just do 60 or 75 hz and about 5 or 6 settings at best .
I think the lap top idea would still work if it were either a gaming lap top they would have a similar video chip or an external video but here costs make it worth it for this ? here it was 15 bucks for the card and 15 postage hardly problem .
I was working on the video sync mixer circuit before this came in the mail ,looking into the pin out to the VGA plug as the circuit shown for the simple version video sync mixing and Peter Scotts also pulse width adjustment for 405 and 240 line .
I will look into pin 9 i was wondering how to power the pulse width adjustment
So i will get back to that so i can see what's coming out of the VGA plug once i try a 405 or what ever mode line ...a old 625 line monitor might be able to be adjusted down if the line frequency go's down that far ,height would be way off .
So today i am a touch closer i will be happier once i see the correct line and frame frequencies on my scope i can then think about the monitor side more .
Attachments
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DSCN7600.JPG
DSCN7595.JPG
DSCN7596.JPG
DSCN7597.JPG
DSCN7598.JPG
DSCN7599.JPG
VGA-Pinouts-16fe4wk (1).png
VGA.jpg
VGA.jpg (25.28 KiB) Viewed 554 times
SynchRed (Large) (1).jpg
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The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Thu May 19, 2022 10:16 pm

I have been thinking about it and since i have a 625 line monitor working it would be silly not to try this first to see it works once the circuit is complete lucky for me Others have worked out a 625 line mode line
Modeline "1500x580_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 26.880 1500 1508 1605 1720 580 582 596 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Other mode lines to try on a monitor build below
Modeline "1200x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 8.020 1200 1210 1251 1336 220 221 232 240 hsync-vsync
Modeline "664x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 378 386 405 interlace-hsync -vsync
Modeline "996x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 12.150 996 1008 1131 1200 377 378 386 405 interlace-hsync-vsync
Modeline '900x180_25 4.5kHz 25.0Hz" 4.050 664 728 784 900 170 172 176 180 hsync -vsync
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun May 22, 2022 3:51 pm

I finished the video and sync mixer circuit yesterday and tested the sync and video on my scope just to see if i could change the line and sync with mode line its a procedure i need to learn
DSCN7603.JPG

DSCN7605.JPG

Gave it a go to see if i could change the sync line and frame rates ,so far i can do 625 and 525 line all of cause in B/w but the colour is there split to red green and blue if any one wanted to bother building a colour monitor its there .
First result 625 line below .
DSCN7611.JPG

You can change the resolution of 625 line to different display settings i kept and eye on the line a frame rates when i was doing this they stayed the same just aspect ratio and sharpness change .
This is an old security monitor and it has electronic switching of the video between 4 inputs and my luck after the test these inputs would not switch were stuck in position input 4 which seems to not work when it showing it there ,so i will have to look into fixing or bypassing the switches before i can work any more on this
My luck also on the second little crt 625 line b/w tv is faulty :roll:
Mean time look into getting modeline to change the line frame rates to something else
Attachments
DSCN7613.JPG
DSCN7612.JPG
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sun May 22, 2022 9:45 pm

Ok trying the other mode lines on the desk top i found its not loading in the Advanced settings window you can type it in i suppose copying it in typing ,but trying it on the lap top out of interest to work out the problem it is showing up for 405 line right away ,now this is a dilemma looks very like it may be possible to use the dual display original idea ,if it will work from the second vga display a big if .
This all may take me a while but worth showing if this is all worth it or not ,so far fine for a pc to output old 625 line but the other older systems are more of interest .
Attachments
Screen 00006.jpg
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Fri May 27, 2022 7:18 pm

Very happy to report my go at all this is successful a few little mistakes with working out the display side but converting to 405 line is very possible for a few dollars
Theres sort of a procedure to follow once you paste in the modeline or lines if correct the display box will be in red at first then you have to do a reboot via the modeline program after rebooting they will be in Green and will work .
The procedure is not explained well on the net a bit of trial and error you get the hang of it .

youtu.be/1OiIe8MkHgE
Attachments
DSCN7646.JPG
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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Re: Modeline 405 line Monitor

Postby Harry Dalek » Sat May 28, 2022 2:17 pm

After experimenting today what systems can be outputted with current mode lines and work on my set up are given see below
Thats a hell of a interesting list for a cheap systems converter a few resistors and dollars for the graphics card,i am sure a stand alone converter can do colour and other lower systems but who wants every thing ; 0 )
My thoughts are now to a monitor have i mentioned i am a determined bugger !
Modeline "664x377_25 10.1kHz 50.0Hz" 8.100 664 680 752 800 377 379 385 405 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "560x220_25 6.0kHz 25.0Hz" 3.750 560 568 584 624 220 221 233 240 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "656x383_25 11.0kHz 50.0Hz" 8.820 656 665 744 800 383 384 392 441 interlace -hsync +vsync
Modeline "640x540_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 13.620 640 694 758 872 540 556 562 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "570x456_30 15.7kHz 59.9Hz" 12.080 570 621 678 768 456 472 478 525 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1500x580_25 15.6kHz 50.0Hz" 26.880 1500 1508 1605 1720 580 582 596 625 interlace -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1500x100_25 2.7kHz 25.0Hz" 8.020 1500 2828 2938 2999 100 103 105 107 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "1152x738_25 20.5kHz 50.0Hz" 29.320 1152 1168 1240 1432 738 744 745 819 interlace -hsync +vsync
I had trouble having 120 line in this list at first but works after pasteing the mode line after the others were rebooted to work ,thats one of Peter Scotts
Modeline "1500x100_25 3.0kHz" 8.840 1500 2828 2938 2948 100 105 110 120 -hsync -vsync
Now what i also wanted but doesn't work so far i am interested in can't seem to get this one going if any one see's a mistake in the modeline
Modeline "900x180_25 4.5kHz 25.0Hz" 4.050 664 728 784 900 170 172 176 180 -hsync -vsync
There are others but pretty much same line frame rates with different modeline settings
Testing the results on the scope
as in list above
Line H V
405 10.12khz 50hz
240 12.82khz 53.44 hz
441 11.04khz 50hz
625 15.65khz 50hz
525 15.70khz 59.79hz
625 1500x580........15.60khz 49.92hz
107 2.674khz 25hz
819 20.52khz 25hz
120 2.677khz 25hz
Attachments
DSCN7648.JPG
DSCN7649.JPG
DSCN7650.JPG
Last edited by Harry Dalek on Sat May 28, 2022 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The electromagnetic spectrum has no theoretical limit at either end. If all the mass/energy in the Universe is considered a 'limit', then that would be the only real theoretical limit to the maximum frequency attainable.
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